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Michael Edelson




Location: New York
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PostPosted: Mon 05 Oct, 2009 9:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick Kelly wrote:

And I disagree with you both. A group needs its members as much as the members need the group, the two need each other in order to function. I think your egos are starting to poke through and hasn't there been enough of that already? Wink


Patrick,

"You need the group more than the group needs you" was a bad choice of words on my part, as it seems to have shifted focus away from my point, which was that it has to be a mutual fit, not just a case of the group having to prove itself worthy to prospective members.

Chalk this one up to the usual online communication issues.

New York Historical Fencing Association
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David Teague




Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Joined: 25 Jan 2004

Posts: 409

PostPosted: Mon 05 Oct, 2009 10:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick Kelly wrote:
Jean Thibodeau wrote:

Yes it's 42.5% the needs of the member and 57.5% the group's ...... (Depends on how fine one wants to get with the hair splitting ) DOH, just joking.Razz Razz Razz


Sweet Fancy Moses, now it's a math problem! Laughing Out Loud


Here's the deal guys, speaking of math:

I work a full time job, 40-60 hours a week,

I donate between 4-8 hours a week teaching swordplay.

I try to work in 6 hours of gym time to keep the march of time slowed.

I have a wife that likes to see me.

I teach in 2 venues, one is a gym where I do private instruction or lead small study groups (6-8 people), or my larger formal classes(8-14) at a city rec center. At the gym I can hand pick them, at the rec center it's open to the public.

Over the last 10 years I've had well over a hunderd people come and study with me, many came for only one or 2 classes, a few stuck with it (one is a fellow instructor now), most fell to the wayside over the course of time. Now 10 years ago we started with a baskethilted broadsword class as only only offering. Over the last 3 years we'd added classes for the German longsword and messer. I teach 2 of our 3 current offerings

Now here is the punchline...

The city, due to budget cuts didn't advertise my German longsword class this fall, so all I have is 13 returning students. Wow, no starting from scratch, For the first time ever in 10 years, I don't have new students, we, as a group, can move forward as a class. WTF?!

Now this is where most people would say, well just have 2 different classes, a beginning and intermediate. The sad fact is I don't have time. (See above) If I teach a 3rd class, I give up a gym day (for me).

So, to sum it up. I 'm at a age where I want to keep teaching, but only those who really want to learn. I don't care if the person never can be a good fencer, if they have heart and dedication I'll work with them. I don't do it for money or any real limelight, just to have a better understanding of the art.

Cheers,

David

This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.

Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild

"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Mon 05 Oct, 2009 10:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Edelson wrote:
Patrick Kelly wrote:

And I disagree with you both. A group needs its members as much as the members need the group, the two need each other in order to function. I think your egos are starting to poke through and hasn't there been enough of that already? Wink


Patrick,

"You need the group more than the group needs you" was a bad choice of words on my part, as it seems to have shifted focus away from my point, which was that it has to be a mutual fit, not just a case of the group having to prove itself worthy to prospective members.

Chalk this one up to the usual online communication issues.


No worries here Michael, thanks for clarifying and I agree. You wouldn't believe the number of times I've put my foot in my cybermouth over the last ten or twelve years.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Mon 05 Oct, 2009 10:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Membership retention and getting new members is always a problem when there is little money for advertising or promotion plus the fact that the activity is one where only a limited number of people know enough history to be seriously interested in learning.

I find that there is a constant roll over of membership but a few stay around for years but the average is about one or two seasons of training: Some satisfy their curiosity but are not sufficiently motivated to continue once they have at least " tasted " the activity.

Not very serious people who only show up a handful of time are not very motivational for the trainers to sacrifice a lot of time trying to teach.

Now, our group does offer a single " free " try out training session to give a chance for people to see if it's an activity they want to pursue.

If someone joins for a standard session of 15 weekly classes they have to pay the fee up front and if they are not motivated to show up they are wasting their money but not wasting our time ! But, it's wouldn't be very useful to have a full class of paid up students with nobody showing up ! The fees pay for rent of the training space mostly and other minor expenses but nobody is making a living just running the group. ( Note: I'm just a student and have zero involvement with running the school and I'm not in the loop about admin. issues ! Just giving the perspective of a student and some guesswork ).

Anyway, people seriously teaching or taking classes over more than a short period are doing it because they like it and want to learn. ( I agree that even people who show little aptitude but are trying hard and willing to learn are still seen as valued fellow students: Note new students or not very skilled one's are an interesting challenge that can surprise even the very skilled, so they are useful as training partners in any case ).

Well, this is sort of a side issue and probably very variable depending on how each group is organized, how much money there is for a training facility versus training in someone's back yard or a local church or community centre basement.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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JE Sarge
Industry Professional



PostPosted: Mon 05 Oct, 2009 11:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No offense, but seriously, after my experiences with local WMA organizations, I literally do feel that they must qualify themselves to potential members. I have met some real characters in the last several years, some of which I would not feel comfortable letting into my home, much less trusting them enough to allow them to teach me anything. Ego has very little to do with it, it is more of a matter of proving to me that you have something that I need and want to dedicate my time in learning. Running an WMA organization is more like a career in sales than swordplay. As a customer, I want to see what you are offering is better and more suited to me than what others are offering. I don't think anyone shopping for something reliable would want anything less.

Once the deal is sealed, then I commit and give back to the organization, no problemo. When I am in, then I am in 110% and work as part of the organization. But until that point, I am a customer shopping, just as others are. If an organization is filled with drama and attitude - then that would be like a car that was leaking or ridden with other menchanical problems. I'd not buy it... Happy

J.E. Sarge
Crusader Monk Sword Scabbards and Customizations
www.crusadermonk.com

"But lack of documentation, especially for such early times, is not to be considered as evidence of non-existance." - Ewart Oakeshott
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David Teague




Location: Anchorage, Alaska
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Oct, 2009 12:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Jonathan,

No offense taken. Happy

I could be wrong... but I think you'd find my classes worthy.

Cheers,

David

This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.

Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild

"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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J Anstey





Joined: 21 Jul 2007

Posts: 233

PostPosted: Tue 06 Oct, 2009 1:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

FWIW here's my point of view - please keep in mind that I am greatly interested in European arms and the associated martial arts, but my background is Japanese sword arts.

I run a dojo - I am a teacher and a student. I spend money out of my pocket to keep the doors open (hall hire and insurance)

I spend thousands of dollars traveling to seminars held domestically and Japan to learn, get points corrected and develop myself as a person and as a Martial artist and also so I can pass on what limited knowledge I have to my students.

My comments are based on my experiences only but I do think there are many similarities and philosophies between Eastern and Western arts.

A Martial art is a discipline not a democracy...

It's not music, it's not shopping for cars or consumer items. In days long past when 'study of the sword' was valuable as a profession it would be an honor to be accepted by an instructor as a student.

When I get a call from an interested potential student I always suggest they come down and have a look at a typical class and a chat. I keep this very informal. I ask the usual - why do you want to learn such an art? Have you had any experience in any type of Martial art etc etc. I am not looking for any big story, just a few words from the person to help me gauge whether there is the possibility of a match, or if this will be a waste of both of our time. I ask them what they would like to know about me, the school, the history, the linage so there is no misunderstandings.

I then suggest they come back next week and join in. I will then spend quite a bit of individual time with them, I also don't charge for the 1st lesson - 2 hours.

So my point here is simple - this is not rocket science - find places in areas you are prepared to travel to. Ask if you can come and watch a class and have a chat. Remember that almost all instructors make zero financial profit from teaching martial arts. Have a conversation with the Instructor if possible - Remember this is the Instructor not a car salesman. If you like what you see and hear then there should be a match. There may not be a match if the instructor sees an insincere person or someone who just wants to have everything their own way.

The training hall is a place where when we step into it , we step out of the real world. We train, we sweat, we listen and WE TRY to be better. There will be a chain of command and it is up to the student to prove themselves.

Anyway rant off Happy
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Vincent Le Chevalier




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PostPosted: Tue 06 Oct, 2009 2:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J Anstey wrote:
A Martial art is a discipline not a democracy...

It's not music, it's not shopping for cars or consumer items. In days long past when 'study of the sword' was valuable as a profession it would be an honor to be accepted by an instructor as a student.

Well, historically, I'm not sure the relationship was as asymetrical as what you seem to have in mind, at least in Europe. Fencing masters had to make a living and to them it was a true business. It was exactly like music at the time (at least in the classical age), you had your fencing master and your music master and your dance master... I suspect their students would have been well aware that they were the source of income for the instructor and that this gave them some rights. This does not preclude respect of course but it was also an honour for the instructor to be chosen by a student... Especially if the student in question was a king Happy I'm not sure for Japan but the same must have happened...

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J Anstey





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PostPosted: Tue 06 Oct, 2009 3:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:
J Anstey wrote:
A Martial art is a discipline not a democracy...

It's not music, it's not shopping for cars or consumer items. In days long past when 'study of the sword' was valuable as a profession it would be an honor to be accepted by an instructor as a student.

Well, historically, I'm not sure the relationship was as asymetrical as what you seem to have in mind, at least in Europe. Fencing masters had to make a living and to them it was a true business. It was exactly like music at the time (at least in the classical age), you had your fencing master and your music master and your dance master... I suspect their students would have been well aware that they were the source of income for the instructor and that this gave them some rights. This does not preclude respect of course but it was also an honour for the instructor to be chosen by a student... Especially if the student in question was a king Happy I'm not sure for Japan but the same must have happened...


I agree with what you are saying in general. It was certainly an Honor to be the Fencing master to a Shogunate or High ranking official and it was certainly competitive and political in the extreme. But you couldn't just rock up to a famous teacher as see if he was good enough to take your money.

I don't know enough of the European History but I would have thought that it would not be a given during the period that the say Silver was at his peak and it be a given that he would teach you (unless you were very wealthy or there was a political gain to be made for the teacher.

Of course I feel honored when a potential student approaches me, I feel much pride when I see them develop and grow, but I would rather keep paying the shortfall in hall hire fees out of my pocket then try and persuade a person that my way was right for everyone and try and apply the same principles that I might do in the running of my actual "real" small business.

But the big difference these days is that there are very few professional teachers of credibility that feed their families by teaching alone. Infact there are only a handful in Japan. I also know for a fact that one of these professionals will certainly not take anyone as his student, you have to earn your way through training attitude and dedication - the fees are a given at the end of the day if you are lucky enough to be accepted as this mans student.

Anyway my quote about discipline v democracy was told to me by a MA teacher I had some 25 years ago and it made sense to me then and it still holds true to me now. What I am instructed to do by my teacher (martial arts wise) is what I do - no negotiation, if 51% of my students want to do things a different way to my teaching which is my teachers' teaching and so on, then - there is the door for them to leave with no harsh feelings.

I really think we over analyse these things and make them more complicated that what they really are. It's a hobby most us us are not professionals and never will be. If you enjoy your martial arts do it, If you don't then - just leave it or find something that appeals more.

I have great respect for you guys out there that study manuscripts and interpretations and believe you are doing a great benefit to this community by your continued efforts. That is great dedication and hard work and deserves respect.

Cheers

Jason
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Vincent Le Chevalier




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PostPosted: Tue 06 Oct, 2009 4:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J Anstey wrote:
I agree with what you are saying in general. It was certainly an Honor to be the Fencing master to a Shogunate or High ranking official and it was certainly competitive and political in the extreme. But you couldn't just rock up to a famous teacher as see if he was good enough to take your money.

I don't know enough of the European History but I would have thought that it would not be a given during the period that the say Silver was at his peak and it be a given that he would teach you (unless you were very wealthy or there was a political gain to be made for the teacher.

I think it was purely a matter of supply and demand... If you were famous and recognized enough you might have been able to be picky as an instructor. But I guess most often paying was enough.

Quote:
But the big difference these days is that there are very few professional teachers of credibility that feed their families by teaching alone.

Yes that's the big difference. The matter today is preservation, so the aim of the teacher is to select students that will be able to study it and transmit themselves. Since there is almost no practical use left you have to be picky about your students. In a way, in the past teachers were forming other teachers and champions (i.e. people that perform great but are not necessarily good a teaching), now in traditional arts only teachers are formed. In the past you picked the future teachers during training.

This is a shift of focus that we have to be aware of in my opinion. It's not in the substance of the art...

But we disgress from the topic of the thread Happy

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Vincent
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Tue 06 Oct, 2009 4:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J. : I don't think there is much disagreement in the last page of posts and people including you and me are just adding perspective by focusing on different but related aspects of the student/teacher or buyer/salesmen of a service.

Since most teacher today are not doing it for the money, and there is little money to be made, their motivation is to teach motivated people to advance the art and maybe also to have people to train with ! ( Hard to train at any advanced level if you have nobody to play with. Wink Big Grin ).

The " students " may be motivated by curiosity but have very variable degrees of dedication to put into it or may have erroneous ideas based on movies and T.V. ? Some are students of history and arms and have only theoretical knowledge but want the experience the feel of actually learning period swordsmanship.

The " commercial " model doesn't work if the potential student arrives with a demanding attitude that " money " ( Generally a pretty small amount of money ) will buy the services of a teacher if the student presents himself as a " Jerk " !

At the same time Western attitudes to learning/teaching don't include treating a teacher as a social superior or master. ( if one is going into a traditional Eastern Martial Art one may have to accept that following the traditions of the martial art is the only way one will be accepted as a student and an integral part of the experience ).

But, real respect from the student to the teacher and to the student from the teacher should still be very real but need not be of the cheerless over-serious and formal variety.

So I agree very much that it's not " here is cash/now teach me ", it's not McHEMA: " I'll take longsword with a side order of rapier and dagger ". Wink ( Hope you understand that this last is meant as a joke. Wink Cool ).

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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J Anstey





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PostPosted: Tue 06 Oct, 2009 5:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:


So I agree very much that it's not " here is cash/now teach me ", it's not McHEMA: " I'll take longsword with a side order of rapier and dagger ". Wink ( Hope you understand that this last is meant as a joke. Wink Cool ).


Laughing Out Loud Laughing Out Loud

Nice posts Jean and Vincent

I have really enjoyed this whole thread as it is certainly thought provoking for me to hear different opinions on these issues - it's one of the reasons I visit this site so often. There is a great deal for me to learn here, I also find this site refreshing in that is seems that the vast majority of people here are mature and discuss matters in a civil manner.

I hope to read more opinions.

Thanks

Jason
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P. Cha




PostPosted: Tue 06 Oct, 2009 2:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Edelson wrote:
Patrick Kelly wrote:

And I disagree with you both. A group needs its members as much as the members need the group, the two need each other in order to function. I think your egos are starting to poke through and hasn't there been enough of that already? Wink


Patrick,

"You need the group more than the group needs you" was a bad choice of words on my part, as it seems to have shifted focus away from my point, which was that it has to be a mutual fit, not just a case of the group having to prove itself worthy to prospective members.

Chalk this one up to the usual online communication issues.


That is true too...if an individual doesn´t mesh with the group, the group should not accept the individual. I have seen quite a few dojos get utterly ruined by non selective membership...and in this case, money is involved, not just a passion for the art. Bad seeds will stall the growth of your group at best. Will cause you to lose members at worst. However that still doesn´t mean the individual should be proving to the group...the best way is the group does what it does, the individual do what they do, and if they fit, they fit...if not...well there are quite a few other people out there in the world Happy .
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J Anstey





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PostPosted: Tue 06 Oct, 2009 6:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

P. Cha wrote:
[

That is true too...if an individual doesn´t mesh with the group, the group should not accept the individual. I have seen quite a few dojos get utterly ruined by non selective membership...and in this case, money is involved, not just a passion for the art. Bad seeds will stall the growth of your group at best. Will cause you to lose members at worst. However that still doesn´t mean the individual should be proving to the group...the best way is the group does what it does, the individual do what they do, and if they fit, they fit...if not...well there are quite a few other people out there in the world Happy .


Ditto that!

We try and instill that our dojo is the "group" ,team or clan but the art is for themselves as individuals- they get of it as much or as little as they want. There are some of those people with come in raw with a natural talent (bloody annoying for those of us who have to work hard Laughing Out Loud ) anyway in JSA there is a specific senior/junior relationship and code, based on time spent, age etc but also based mutual respect that helps a bit in "everyone knowing their place"

ahhh, I could go on for too long again so I'll stop there as this is probably diverging. Happy
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Allen Andrews




Location: Maine USA
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PostPosted: Tue 13 Oct, 2009 9:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I just want to say that I have attended a couple of seminars that featured Christian Henry Tobler. At no time did he ever malign another school. At the second event there was an instructor in Fiore (and my memory is so bad, I can't recall his name), not only did they not snipe at each other, they worked together.

I realize that mine is a very limited experience, but I saw a lot more of the behavior you describe in the Asian martial arts arena than in the WMA sect.

I am sure there is bad behavior out there, but Christian Henry Tobler is a gentleman (and a scholar), and a good ambassador for the western martial arts.

" I would not snare even an orc with a falsehood. "

Faramir son of Denethor

Words to live by. (Yes, I know he's not a real person)
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David Teague




Location: Anchorage, Alaska
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PostPosted: Tue 13 Oct, 2009 2:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allen Andrews wrote:
I just want to say that I have attended a couple of seminars that featured Christian Henry Tobler. At no time did he ever malign another school. At the second event there was an instructor in Fiore (and my memory is so bad, I can't recall his name), not only did they not snipe at each other, they worked together.


Hello Allen,

If that was at the 4W in Seattle a few years ago that was Christian Tobler and Bob Charron working together.

I had the pleasure of attending that joint class.

Yours,

David

This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.

Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild

"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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Christian Henry Tobler




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Oct, 2009 3:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi David!

Nope - Allen's talking about Chivalric Weekend 2008. The other instructor was Greg Mele.

Cheers,

Christian

Christian Henry Tobler
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Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Scott A. Brown





Joined: 08 Dec 2008

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Oct, 2009 10:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Speaking to the original post of this thread…

Mr. Arnow, you are absolutely correct. You are not the only one to feel the way you do. Sadly.

I have been extremely fortunate in pursuing my passion for HEMA and have been able to travel the world to teach, train, and exchange with a LOT of practitioners. It is gravely disappointing to report that much of these attitudes you (rightly) criticize are far more prevalent and largely seem to emanate from North America. Oh sure, it certainly goes on elsewhere but the exaggerated presence of it here is not really up for debate based on my first hand observations.

Why so much here? I’ve heard multitudes of *reasons* from simple Internet miscommunication to attempts at cornering some financial market to over-inflated egos to decade old grudges stemming from arguments amongst men who were far more ignorant then than they are now, and many more. They all really come down to only two reasons, in my opinion: insecurity and immaturity.

Folks are bound to disagree and some conflict is healthy because it frequently propels new understanding but the severity and extremism of it here is downright embarrassing. Worst of all, it’s ridiculously counterproductive as your post painfully demonstrates.

None-the-less, belaboring why won’t change a thing and changing our online presence (at the very least) is dearly needed if these arts are going to endure and prosper.

If a man, such as yourself, who is clearly interested and shares interest in related fields is turned off then how many ‘passers-by’ are being alienated? How many other missed opportunities to bring another practitioner into HEMA are occurring on a daily basis? It’s staggering to contemplate. Clearly these missed opportunities are happening….and all because HEMA’s web presence comes across as largely infantile. Shameful on our part, bloody shameful.

In my opinion, the responsibility for affecting any change to these issues lies directly with HEMA’s leadership. End of story. When leaders modify their behaviour their supporters and followers tend to follow suit. Clearly, that needs to happen or we’re going to miss so many more Chad Arnow’s growing to enjoy HEMA.

Reading over this thread I was disappointed not to find much in the way of serious attempts at resolution from the HEMA contingent, instead I read of lot of denial of the problems and attempts to convince folks that ‘it’s really not like that’ despite the contrary opinions stated by yourself and others. Frustratingly, no-one jumped up to say “Yeah, you’re right and here’s what I’m gonna’ do about it!” or “This could really be hurting HEMA’s growth, let’s start working towards fixing this!” For that, I must apologize.

We are yet a young body of folk, we HEMA’teers, and we have much room for improvement. You’ve offered us an opportunity to look at one of our 800lb gorillas in the corner (and boy have we got a few gorillas in corners Wink) and that’s a kindness on your part. Your lesson will be taken to heart and follow through will occur.

Please know that there are HEMA practitioner’s out here who are very much aware of these issues, who are not in denial of them, and are committed and motivated towards rectifying them. Folks who very much desire a better online presence and are working towards this change (amongst others). And there WILL be change.

Pleasantly, it seems that you have been convinced to perhaps give HEMA another shot and that’s exciting to read. I have every confidence that you will find it a real hoot! IF that should work out, and I dearly hope that it does, then this could be a fantastic win-win situation for HEMA as well as yourself. You’d open a great new chapter in your life and HEMA would find a man with great influence to encourage other potential practitioners to get involved. I practically salivate at the possibilities! Happy

Alternatively, if you aren’t fortunate enough to have a HEMA group in your area you might also consider starting a group of your own. You clearly have an aptitude for follow through and an even, analytical temperament which would surely go a long way to seeing good HEMA prosper in your region. It’s a lot of fun, not as hard as some might think, and let’s face it, it’s how most of us got started anyway. Plus, it gives you a great reason to start attending HEMA events, meet lots of fun people, and speculate on their various methods and interpretations. Wink

I wish you Godspeed on your journey, may it be fruitful, long, and most of all fun!

Sincerely,

Scott A. Brown
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Christian Henry Tobler




Location: Oxford, CT
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Oct, 2009 10:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Scott,

I don't see anyone denying that there are online problems. Instead, several posters, myself included, urged Chad to experience the community in person, which reveals a far different world than some of the hostility associated with the WMA community's web presence.

Having just experienced yet another outstanding WMAW, featuring instructors from all over the world, I stand behind those words. The community is vibrant, progressing quickly, and most welcoming to newcomers. Anyone in doubt of this may ask Mr. Roland Warzecha about his first time experience as both attendee and instructor. In fact, it would be hard to find any attendee who would disagree with the sentiment that it was a 'love fest'.

I also don't believe we have any particular problems online that are much worse than any other martial art's; rather, it's quite the contrary. There are martial arts forums whose rudeness and disrespect are orders of magnitude worse than anything ever seen here or on SFI.

As to your commentary on North America, I can't agree - there are problem folks in this endeavor on both sides of the Atlantic. There are European forums that I simply don't visit due to the climate of disrespect present there; I can say the same of some American forums. You can find bad behavior on any continent, if you look for it. Converselly, there are other forums, this one included, that are bastions of civil discourse.

As with all things, your mileage may vary...

Cheers,

Christian

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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David E. Farrell




Location: Evanston, IL
Joined: 25 Jun 2007

Posts: 156

PostPosted: Tue 20 Oct, 2009 2:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have mainly been lurking, but figured I'd toss my .02 USD into the mix.

My group tends to follow the simple rule: "don't be a jerk". We all do this, and it isn't because it is policy... it's the way we are as people. I guess some groups aren't as lucky. I feel sorry for them, and dislike what they do to the image of HEMA as a whole (but I am sure there are folks who don't like what I do for it either :P ). But I can't make anyone change, and I doubt any amount of electronic ink will make the problem go away. What I can do is not be a jerk as best I can and hope others follow.

Unfortunately, my (and people like me) efforts will probably go largely un-noticed because there tends to be a confirmation bias in these sorts of things (we think it is the case, and recall the examples that back it up more easily than those that don't).

Chad (and anyone else looking), I hope you are able to find a group that agrees with you as well as mine agrees with me.

AKA: 'Sparky' (so I don't need to explain later Wink )

For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother
-- King Henry, Henry V, William Shakespeare

Before I came here I was confused about this subject. Having listened to your lecture I am still confused... but on a higher level.
-- Enrico Fermi
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