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Lafayette C Curtis
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 Posted: Thu 29 Mar, 2007 11:39 am Post subject: What is a jawshan? |
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Well. That's the question. What is a jawshan? A mail shirt? Or a certain kind of solid cuirass? Or is it not a specific term at all, being rather more fuzzy and catchall in nature?
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John Cooksey
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| Posted: Thu 29 Mar, 2007 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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"Jawshan" does indicate mail shirt/hauberk, though the word "Zereh" is also used for this (and may be more specific for mail, alone). Some authors indicate that "jawshan" is a mail shirt with integral plate elements.
I didn't surrender, but they took my horse and made him surrender.
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Thu 29 Mar, 2007 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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Jawshan seems to have changed in definition over time. See Manoucher's book pp.279-280. He doesn't seem to think that the term was ever used to describe mail though - only mail-and-plates.
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 29 Mar, 2007 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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Dan, i've seen you reference Manoucher's book a couple of times now and have been meaning to pick it up, what do you think of the work?
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John Cooksey
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| Posted: Thu 29 Mar, 2007 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | | Jawshan seems to have changed in definition over time. See Manoucher's book pp.279-280. He doesn't seem to think that the term was ever used to describe mail though - only mail-and-plates. |
Yeah, that appeared to be his conclusion. Some of the sources, early in the that chapter in the book, seem to be lest specific in their usage of the term. So it could be a semantic shift in historic usage of the term, or simply a confusion of terms by some authors (more or less familiar with iranian arms and armor/and-or language)
I didn't surrender, but they took my horse and made him surrender.
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Thu 29 Mar, 2007 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Allan.
Manoucher's work is the most comprehensive book on the subject so far published.
It is also one of the most beautiful books I have ever seen.
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John Cooksey
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| Posted: Thu 29 Mar, 2007 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | Hi Allan.
Manoucher's work is the most comprehensive book on the subject so far published.
It is also one of the most beautiful books I have ever seen. |
Gotta agree with that!
The color plates alone are magnificent . . . . . .
I believe there are several plates of both jawshan and zereh armors (along with many others), with photos taken from different angles and details.
I didn't surrender, but they took my horse and made him surrender.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 29 Mar, 2007 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | Hi Allan.
Manoucher's work is the most comprehensive book on the subject so far published.
It is also one of the most beautiful books I have ever seen. |
I guess I could just do a search here and find the book easily enough.  But maybe you could make it easier if you gave us the title.  ( You may already have done so in another post but I don't remember if you did )
I wonder if it would be possible to get one directly from Manouchehr ? Autographed maybe ?
We would all line up for that I think if it was possible to all be in the same city / bookstore for a book signing.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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John Cooksey
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| Posted: Thu 29 Mar, 2007 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | Dan Howard wrote: | Hi Allan.
Manoucher's work is the most comprehensive book on the subject so far published.
It is also one of the most beautiful books I have ever seen. |
I guess I could just do a search here and find the book easily enough. But maybe you could make it easier if you gave us the title. ( You may already have done so in another post but I don't remember if you did )
I wonder if it would be possible to get one directly from Manouchehr ? Autographed maybe ?
We would all line up for that I think if it was possible to all be in the same city / bookstore for a book signing. |
I am not Dan, but the title is "Arms and Armor from Iran: The Bronze Age to the End of the Qajar Period", by Manoucher Moshtagh Khorasani.
And I bet that it would be possible, somehow, to get an autographed copy. Manoucher is a great guy . . . . .
It is an amazing first major work.
I didn't surrender, but they took my horse and made him surrender.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 29 Mar, 2007 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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| John Cooksey wrote: | I am not Dan, but the title is "Arms and Armor from Iran: The Bronze Age to the End of the Qajar Period", by Manoucher Moshtagh Khorasani.
And I bet that it would be possible, somehow, to get an autographed copy. Manoucher is a great guy . . . . .
It is an amazing first major work. |
Thanks for the information: I'll look into availability from conventional sources but I think I will P.M. Manouchehr about getting an autographed copy if it's a practical thing to do and not too much of an inconvenience for him. 
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Fri 30 Mar, 2007 9:55 am Post subject: |
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Well, thanks for the pointers. If it's a book, though, that means I'll have to save first before I can get it. Patience, patience...
BTW, could anyone indulge me a bit further and tell me if any of the armors illustrated in this page:
http://www.geocities.com/normlaw/page9.html
fits the description for a jawshan or zereh? Just consider it something to tide me over until I've saved enough to actually buy the book.
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Hisham Gaballa
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Fri 30 Mar, 2007 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Lafayette C Curtis wrote: | Well, thanks for the pointers. If it's a book, though, that means I'll have to save first before I can get it. Patience, patience...
BTW, could anyone indulge me a bit further and tell me if any of the armors illustrated in this page:
http://www.geocities.com/normlaw/page9.html
fits the description for a jawshan or zereh? Just consider it something to tide me over until I've saved enough to actually buy the book. |
The pic from Dura Europos is a very speculative interpretation. The original grafitto is so crude that it could be interpreted at least half a dozen different ways. You wouldn't be too wrong if you used any of the other illustrations as a basis for a jawshan.
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Fri 30 Mar, 2007 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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I know that well. I used to have pictures of nine different intepretations of the Dura armor, though I lost all but one of them in a HDD crash a couple of years back.
Still, if the definition of "jawshan" is indeed loose enough to include almost all of the examples in that page...well, that already clarifies a lot. Thanks for the help, everyone!
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This is a standard topic