[Justin King]

I am trying to get an idea of when/where basket hilts and other compound hilts began to appear with screws affixing the terminals of the basket to the pommel? The SW11 basket is the earliest example of this that I have seen, was this fairly common by this time or was this an unusual feature among early basket hilts?

[Jack Yang]

SW 11?
you mean this thing?
http://www.themadpiper.com/images/sw11l.JPG
give us a link or something yo, or we won't know what you talking about....
btw, the pic is of a design from the 1500s. If this is the sword you've seen, then I believe you've seen the earliest of the basket hilted swords.
This is a little research I've done just for your =]:
http://swordforum.com/sfu/scottish/basket-hilt.html

[Nathan Robinson]

Jack-

The link you posted is a modern reproduction.

Justin is talking about this: http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/551.html



The SFI page you linked to doesn't say much.

[Justin King]

Thank you Nathan, that is indeed the one I am referring to. I wasn't very specific and assumed that people would recognize the reference without a link since it is a pretty well known example. I apologize for the oversight.

[GG Osborne]

Basically, Justin, the baskets attached with screws seem to originate with Mortuary hilts as far as I can determine and they are also contemporary with the earliest full-basket examples. My guess is that until the basket was strengthened a bit with more substantial bars, the screws were necessary to ensure a solid grip-pommel-basket fit. As Nathan suggest, I think you are looking at about the earliest examples unless you include the "Hounslow" type hilts and proto-mortuary hilts as well. Personally, I think the screws were just a convenient means to ensure solid construction.

[E.B. Erickson]

Hi Justin and all,
The use of screws attaching the pommel to the arms of the basket has to date from the later part of the 1500s, as that's the approximate dating for the SW11 (and not all SW11 type hilts have the screws). The slightly later Twysden basket has this feature as well. But like George pointed out, it really became the norm around the period of use of the Mortuary hilts. Rapiers (mainly English) of the period even have the screws. odd as that may seem to some.

--ElJay

[Thomas McDonald]

A somewhat related discussion, and quite interesting, is one our old late friend Scott Bubar (Sikander) started on SFI's Antique Military Forum called: Earliest Threaded Tangs?

Many of these examples featured guards that are attached by screws to the pommel, such as the mentioned SW11, Twysden, and Hounslow hilted swords. (unfortuately alot of the image links are now broken). Earliest basket-hilt I came across was dated c. 1575, if I remember correctly !

It would be an interesting study to figure out the ratio of screwed guard attachment w/ threaded tang to ones that used the peening method ...... but that is probably an overwhelming task that none of us have the time & energy for, not to mention access to ;-)

Cheers, Mac

[Justin King]

Thanks for the input fellas. I have seen the screws on some of Eljay's hilts which appear to be of the very early 9-bar construction (Irish hilt?). I am quite comfortable assuming from this that it appeared on swords of this type/time period but I couldn't recall any original examples, other than the SW11 which is different in style but considered by Wallace to be English in origin like most of the other early basket hilts.
Were the screws common mostly on English swords or do they appear on hilts of Scottish or continental origin as well?

[GG Osborne]

As ELJay pointed out, some rapiers - mostly continental - had screws but as far as I can remember, the only basket hilts with screws attaching basket to pommel that I can remember are English. Remember, the common construction method of the period seems to have to import the blade from Germany, Italy, or Spain and mount a hilt to customer specs. This is why Hounslow was important in that it was about the first major effort by the government to produce English military blades in quantity. So, I imagine the screwed hilts were English in origin and were used throughout the British Isles during the period roughly 1550-1625.. Experts such as Mac and ELJay will probably correct my dating but I think the screws basically disappeared after the Civil War.

[William Goodwin]

GG your dating is on the right track just needs to be a bit longer. Screws in the guards are found predominately on mortuary's & proto morts. The mortuary saw production and usage until around the late 1660's to 1670.

Cheers,

Bill

[Justin King]

Thanks again for the replies, It's nice to be able to pick your brains! I guess one of the reasons for my question is that few of the early basket hilts I have seen (with or without the screws in the basket/pommel) have a specific date associated with them- "late 16th cent." seems to be typical. Then every once in a while I see something like this (lower sword in the picture)- http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=9547

Which is of the early style basket and had the screw(s) but I can't put a date on it with any certainty...feel free to butt in, Eljay!

[E.B. Erickson]

Hi Justin,
The hilt in the photo is a combination of two English hilts from the first half of the 1600s. The pommel's shape and the saltire plates are from a hilt excavated in Virginia, and the overall form of the basket is from the Basing House sword (Basing House was destroyed in 1645 during the ECW, and this sword was excavated from the ruins). There's only one screw on this hilt attaching the knucklebow to the pommel.

--ElJay

[Justin King]

They are both very nice and it aint a secret because both were gone before I had a chance to even think about buying one...thanks for your much appreciated input and your ever impressive work.
Justin