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Kerim Mamedov
Location: Poland Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 53
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 Posted: Wed 21 Mar, 2007 7:13 pm Post subject: Question about Wallon sword |
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Hello.
I'm not native english speaker, so, sorry for my english.
I have a firangi sword (india arm with european, usually belgian blade) and I can not identify origin of a blade.
it's flexible (!), straight, blade is 98 cm, whole thing is about 130 cm tip is not sharp, but blade looks "hard used", cross-section is a triangle shape, but on the last 20 cm its double-egged. at the beginning of the blade it has a 3 grooves, wit one going to the tip. may be it's a wallon sword? can somebody take a look on the attached pic, or send me a pic/link to good quality photo of wallon sword (especially a blade)
Thanks
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firangi
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Felix Wang
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| Posted: Fri 23 Mar, 2007 11:16 am Post subject: |
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It sounds like some sort of backsword blade; but I cannot see any detail at all in the photos which have been posted. Do you have any other pictures of the blade?
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Kerim Mamedov
Location: Poland Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 53
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| Posted: Sun 25 Mar, 2007 8:01 am Post subject: |
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I have a blade  so I can make any pics, what part of it do you want to see?
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Lafayette C Curtis
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Kerim Mamedov
Location: Poland Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 53
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| Posted: Sun 25 Mar, 2007 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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well, tanks for links.
Indian provenance of a hilt is not what I'm asking about, i now it's indian, but hilt form (and seller info) is a FIRANGI - they used to use european blade for it, and I'm trying to find out what kind of european blade can it be. Unfortunately, most descriptions of wallon sword talks about it's hilt, and I need info about a blade. Pics of Your link shows that wallon was become narrower, and my one is straight nearly all it's length.
But seller agreed to take it back - there are remains of welders work inside a hilts basket
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Jonathan Hopkins
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| Posted: Sun 25 Mar, 2007 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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'Walloon' is a description of a hilt form, not of a blade. So if the blade is European, then it could have been mounted with a walloon style hilt. But it could also be put with any hilt that is commonly associated with a long, straight cavalry sword blade. I don't think there is any way to determine an exact sword form that this blade would have belonged to, nor is it necessary. I think that the most that can be discovered about the blade is perhaps a country of origin, or at the very least that it is European.
Best,
Jonathan
Added: Posted at the same time as Nathan!
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Kerim Mamedov
Location: Poland Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 53
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| Posted: Sun 25 Mar, 2007 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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...'Walloon' is a description of a hilt form, not of a blade...
I supposed that it's some type, like "broadsword", "rapier" or "sabre" ... 
i'll try to make some pics today.
Jonathan, in your gallery "JGH Collection 6" on a photo DSCN0975.1
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/jgileshopkins/alb...75277639/4
the highest sword looks like the one I'm asking about.
What is it?
Thanks.
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Nate C.
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| Posted: Mon 26 Mar, 2007 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| Kerim Mamedov wrote: |
... i now it's indian, but hilt form (and seller info) is a FIRANGI - they used to use european blade for it, ...
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I've always thought the hilt type shown is called a Khanda. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. The Firangi (note Gene Roddenberry's lack of imagination here   ) name applied to certain indian swords I believe refers to the blade being of Eupopean manufacture. I could be wrong but what made me think this is that Firang or Farangi is indian slag for westerners, especially white europeans. Just a thought.
Cheers,
Nate C.
Sapere Aude
"If you are going to kill the man, at least give him a decent salute." - A. Blansitt
If they ever come up with a Swashbuckling School, I think one of the courses should be Laughing, then Jumping Off Something. --Jack Handy
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Kerim Mamedov
Location: Poland Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 53
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| Posted: Mon 26 Mar, 2007 1:55 am Post subject: |
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I think Khanda is wider and more massive, double edged and usually rhombus.
my one is one edged, triangle and flexible from the hilt to the tip.
It can be some other type of indian sword, (no one can count all ways they curwe any pice of metal they grabbed )
but most probabely it is a firnagi sword, and you are right, that means "european".
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Jonathan Hopkins
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| Posted: Mon 26 Mar, 2007 6:18 am Post subject: |
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Kerim,
The sword in the photo is an English basket-hilted dragoon sword from c.1740. Here is a thread about that sword with some better photos: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...asket+hilt
Scroll down for more detailed pics and information. As I said in that thread, I believe that the blade is of German manufacture as it is stuck with what appears to be a king's head mark.
Jonathan
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Mon 26 Mar, 2007 8:52 am Post subject: |
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"Firangi"--a corruption of Portuguese--roughly means "white," "European," or "Western." It's a relatively common root among the people who had experienced extended contact with Portuguese colonists--Malaysians use the word "Peringgi" as a somewhat pejorative term for Westerners down to this day. However, I live in Indonesia--in Java, to be precise--and our former colonizers were Dutch so the colloquial Javanese term for Whites is "londo" from "Holland."
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Kerim Mamedov
Location: Poland Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 53
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| Posted: Tue 27 Mar, 2007 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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That one looks pretty much like my one!
next question - is that english dragon sword flexible?
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Jonathan Hopkins
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| Posted: Tue 27 Mar, 2007 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Kerim Mamedov wrote: | That one looks pretty much like my one!
next question - is that english dragon sword flexible? |
I would say yes, it seems like it would be flexible, but I am not going to do any type of flex testing with it. But yes, it seems like it would flex well if I tried to do so with it.
Jonathan
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 27 Mar, 2007 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Lafayette C Curtis wrote: | | "Firangi"--a corruption of Portuguese--roughly means "white," "European," or "Western." It's a relatively common root among the people who had experienced extended contact with Portuguese colonists--Malaysians use the word "Peringgi" as a somewhat pejorative term for Westerners down to this day. However, I live in Indonesia--in Java, to be precise--and our former colonizers were Dutch so the colloquial Javanese term for Whites is "londo" from "Holland." |
That's really interesting. I never knew that.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Kerim Mamedov
Location: Poland Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 53
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| Posted: Tue 27 Mar, 2007 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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when I say "flexible", I mean it's bending a little bit, but I'm not trying to brake it just a little try, 1-3 degree. just to see that it can bend.
another thing - something in copper color shows under metal (nearly unreal, I now) and it's not a rust.
BTW, I want to place a little note about yatagan, this weapon have an interesting story line, where to post it?
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Hisham Gaballa
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| Posted: Wed 28 Mar, 2007 1:57 am Post subject: |
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| Nate C. wrote: | | Kerim Mamedov wrote: |
... i now it's indian, but hilt form (and seller info) is a FIRANGI - they used to use european blade for it, ...
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I've always thought the hilt type shown is called a Khanda. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. The Firangi (note Gene Roddenberry's lack of imagination here ) name applied to certain indian swords I believe refers to the blade being of Eupopean manufacture. I could be wrong but what made me think this is that Firang or Farangi is indian slag for westerners, especially white europeans. Just a thought.
Cheers, |
I'll take that even further Firangi is derived from the Arabic 'Ferenjah', used in the 11th-14th century AD to refer to Crusaders, the term itself is derived from 'Frank' as in Charlemagne's 'Franks'.
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Wed 28 Mar, 2007 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| Kerim Mamedov wrote: | | when I say "flexible", I mean it's bending a little bit, but I'm not trying to brake it just a little try, 1-3 degree. just to see that it can bend. |
Yes--any good cutting sword should be able to do this. Without this kind of flexibility, it would break upon striking the object to be cut. The exact amount of flexibility (actually elasticity, since you'd want the sword to spring back to the original shape) varies depending on the desired balance between cutting and thrusting ability, though.
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Kerim Mamedov
Location: Poland Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 53
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| Posted: Wed 28 Mar, 2007 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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My one is elastic - up to 15 degree with out any problem, and you are right - I can bend up to 3-5 degrees other blades (yatagan, chespot bayonet, kyu gunto) but this "probabely dragon sword" is much more elastic than others
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