[Lafayette C Curtis]

Has there been any research done into historical evidences of the use of poleyns (plate kneecaps) with civilian dress in the 14th and 15th centuries or so? I have noticed its presence in contemporary illustrations and mentions of its use in a couple of written sources, but it's far from enough to determine whether this practice was common enough to render it unremarkable. There has also been a lack of information about what purpose these poleyns were meant to serve. So far I've been wearing them with my kit on the assumption that they make handy knee-protectors for riders and people have to travel over difficult ground, but I can't produce any primary sources to prove or disprove this rationale.

Any help would be appreciated!

[Nathan Robinson]

I have moved this topic to the Historic Arms Talk forum.

Please note the description for this forum:

"Discussions of reproduction and authentic historical arms and armour from various cultures and time periods"

Thank you.

[Al Muckart]

[Andrew Fox]

I recall reading something a while ago stated that it was fashionable in the late 14th century for individuals to wear leg armor with civilian dress when "off duty" (so to speak). Of course I can't remember what the source is for the life of me, but I suppose it means you're probably on to something.

[Lafayette C Curtis]

Argh. There used to be several contemporary images in various threads of these forums, although most of them show more comprehensive leg armor than just the poleyn (mostly cuisses and poleyns). They're in the Downloads section, though, and I'm having a tough time searching through them. Let's see if I can find anything in the Gallery, since if not then I'll have to manually scan a couple of printed pages.

[Lafayette C Curtis]

Here's one picture. The accuracy of the arms and armor displayed in it can be disputed somewhat since it's a rather fanciful rendering of Christian soldiers fighting Saracens or Moors, but the armor of the European soldiers (coming from the right side) are reasonably consistent with what we know of the late 15th-century European panoply so its value as evidence cannot be entirely disputed.

Note the archer with poleyns but no other leg armor in the lower right corner. The value of the poleyns here is obvious--a pair of padded poleyns would be very practical and convenient for protecting the knees if the archer was ordered to kneel. Granted, it depicts the use of poleyns in a combat situation, not a civilian one. For the latter I'm going to look over some of the Burgundian sources at my disposal since that's where I recall spotting the largest number of poleyns without other kinds of leg armor in non-combat situations.

[Steven H]

What is holding the poleyns up?

[Lafayette C Curtis]

The picture doesn't give much indication, but in my case I imporvised it with padding. Once I've found the right amount it's quite comfortable to wear without decreasing the protection value or significantly hampering my movements. I can do almost everything between standing at attention and kneeling in the praying man's position without feeling strange or uncomfortable.

It's mostly a blind guess, though, and the fact that it works for me doesn't mean that it's necessarily how those people would have held the thing up. Maybe they had specially-designed points around the knees of their hose? Or who knows if they used spare garters for the job?

[Steven H]

[Lafayette C Curtis]

Well, padded the front and sides, then some improvised lacing at the back (cheated some of the rivet-holes, that is). I haven't had the chance to do any fighting on foot that way but marching was no problem and poking at things on horseback even easier. Somehow, I suspect there might have been a specific design that would have stayed on the knee on its own without lacing to an undergarment--one somewhat different from the poleyns worn together with cuisses or other leg defenses.