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Rodolfo Martínez
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Michael Olsen
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 Posted: Wed 21 Mar, 2007 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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I saw a couple (several, actually) suits in the National Armoury in Madrid that were made with actual metal skirts. I understand these to be tournament harnesses of some sort, but no doubt others can add to that. I think that this cloth "skirt" may have been a decorative covering that went over or under this metal skirt - a tonlet?. Here's a picture of the type of suit I'm talking about:
Essentially, I can't say for certain, but I speculate that it has something to do with those funny metal skirts. Of course, I may be totally wrong.
Michael Olsen
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Thu 22 Mar, 2007 7:35 am Post subject: |
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Old-fashioned? Maybe, but if you take a look at the Features article on Sir George Clifford then they won't look all that outdated. Anyway, is there any information about the material of the "skirt?" If it's leather, it might just have been the lower part of a very heavily-decorated buff coat.
The "skirt" on Michael's picture, though, is definitely a tonlet and doesn't seem to be related to the three you've posted.
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Rodolfo Martínez
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| Posted: Thu 22 Mar, 2007 8:58 am Post subject: |
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No info about materials, but, Were buff-coats used just like skirted surcoats of the Gendarmes? Did Gendarmes continued with the tradition of the surcoat, bases, wathever?
Thanks.
¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Fri 23 Mar, 2007 6:17 am Post subject: |
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I'm afraid not. Buffcoats were meant to be worn inside metal armor, not outside like a surcoat/jupon/lentner/whatever. It is also a complete garment, sometimes even equipped with sleeves--so definitely not just "skirts" like bases or waffenrocks. Covering garments seem to have lost much of their popularity, being ground under the new trends of alwhyt and blacked/blued armor, but this doesn't necessarily rule out the presence of a man-at-arms or two who stuck to the old traditions (or sought to revive them). It's worth noting that Louis XIV's pageants included some armored horsemen with flamboyant cloth skirts, though these were parade/tournament wear rather than field combat gear.
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Rodolfo Martínez
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| Posted: Fri 23 Mar, 2007 10:10 am Post subject: |
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Could those armour be a curator´s mistake?Since the previously shown armours look like second half of the XVI century while, if i´m not wrong, tho following ones are from early XVII century.
http://www.sl-armours.com/eng/showpic/mode,2/...mours.html
http://www.sl-armours.com/eng/showpic/mode,2/...mours.html
http://www.sl-armours.com/eng/showpic/mode,2/...mours.html
http://www.sl-armours.com/eng/showpic/mode,2/...mours.html
http://www.sl-armours.com/eng/showpic/mode,2/...mours.html
http://www.sl-armours.com/eng/showpic/mode,2/...mours.html
A mounted version of those armours:
http://www.sl-armours.com/eng/showpic/mode,2/...mours.html
¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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Werner Stiegler
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| Posted: Fri 23 Mar, 2007 11:43 am Post subject: |
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I've seen those kind of skirts on illustrations of maximilian cavalry. They seemed to have been fashionable back then.
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Hisham Gaballa
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| Posted: Fri 23 Mar, 2007 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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If you check out contemporary paintings of the Battle of Pavia (1525) you'll see that many of the French men-at-arms wore similar 'skirts' with their armour.
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Rodolfo Martínez
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| Posted: Fri 23 Mar, 2007 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Essentially, I can't say for certain, but I speculate that it has something to do with those funny metal skirts. Of course, I may be totally wrong. |
Not wrong at all Michael, as far as i know those tonlets were created after the fashion of the cloth skirts, but this armour were more designed for foot combat.
But the armours shown are around the second half of the XVI century, the weird thing about that armours is that it is suposed that by that time the skirt fashion faded away and was replaced by the ¨white armour¨ one.
¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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Daniel Staberg
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| Posted: Fri 23 Mar, 2007 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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Given that French, English, Spanish and Dutch gendarmes, demi-lancers and even some harquebusiers wore cassocks over their armours in the 1560-1600 period I'm not sure one can say that use of a covering garment on top of the armour fell out of use. Indeed they can be said to be an early form of uniform given that each company or cornet was supposed to wear the same colours. (And the cassocks were often purchased and issued in bulk by the commander)
The Germans seem to have been the exception to the rule but their use of black-and-white or all-black armour gave them a distinctive look from the start.
Regards
Daniel
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Rodolfo Martínez
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| Posted: Fri 23 Mar, 2007 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Given that French, English, Spanish and Dutch gendarmes, demi-lancers and even some harquebusiers wore cassocks over their armours in the 1560-1600 period I'm not sure one can say that use of a covering garment on top of the armour fell out of use. Indeed they can be said to be an early form of uniform given that each company or cornet was supposed to wear the same colours. (And the cassocks were often purchased and issued in bulk by the commander)
The Germans seem to have been the exception to the rule but their use of black-and-white or all-black armour gave them a distinctive look from the start. |
Intresting, so you say that those armour are not product of a curator mistake or fantasy stuff, and these later man-at-arms can look like the early XVI century old Gendarmerie?
¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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Jack Yang
Location: maryland Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 38
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| Posted: Sat 24 Mar, 2007 2:53 pm Post subject: just a joke, to lighten to mode |
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maybe it's a lady's armour =D
lol, just kidding =P
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Rodolfo Martínez
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| Posted: Sat 24 Mar, 2007 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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I contacted the administrator of the site and he told me that those armours were from Dresden Museum, Germany, nothing more. I hope this can bring some light.
¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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Daniel Staberg
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| Posted: Mon 26 Mar, 2007 4:28 am Post subject: |
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| Rodolfo Martínez wrote: | | I contacted the administrator of the site and he told me that those armours were from Dresden Museum, Germany, nothing more. I hope this can bring some light. |
Havign taken a secodn look at the armours they look more like parade or tournament armour to me rather than battle armour. Which could explain the use of skirts. Most rulers had these kind of items which were used only for show or contests.
This http://www.sl-armours.com/eng/showpic/mode,2/...mours.html armour is Gustavus Adolphus tournament armour with the coverings designed for his funeral in 1634. As stated above I suspect that the other armours show above are intended for similar non-military use.
Regards
Daniel
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Hisham Gaballa
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| Posted: Mon 09 Apr, 2007 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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I was at the Royal Armouries in the Tower of London yesterday, when i came across this reproduction of a painting showing a meeting between Henry VIII and Maximillian I at Therouanne. I f you look at the men-at-arms behind henry and Maximillian, you'll see that many of them have similar cloth skirts under their armour.
Click on the thumbnails please:
  
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Rodolfo Martínez
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| Posted: Tue 10 Apr, 2007 10:40 am Post subject: |
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Those are wonderful images Mr. Gaballa, thank you very much.
Are those Germans wearing Gothic harness?
Anyway, do you know if there is any image or darwing made during that period showing Gendarmes wearing Maximilian fluted armours with their skirts?
Thanks.
¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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This is a standard topic
