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Lafayette C Curtis
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 Posted: Wed 14 Mar, 2007 6:59 am Post subject: History of kettle-hats |
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Are there any works in print or in webpages that focus on the history and the development of the kettle-hat? It is of particular interest for me since I have an inordinate fondness for the study of the arms and armor of the ordinary soldiers. On one end of the spectrum I still often get puzzled about whether a helmet is to be classified as a cabasset or a kettle-hat or both while on the other I'm curious about when kettle-hats first developed into what could be called its classic form. And of course I'm intrigued by the later models that cover so much of the head and face that it has to be provided with eyeslits--especially about whether it still counts as a kettle-hat or (by some strange trick of classification) as some sort of sallet or as a third type of helmet entirely distinct from the two.
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Sean Flynt
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Wed 14 Mar, 2007 7:31 am Post subject: |
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I don't know of any kettle-helm specific publications, though that doesn't mean there aren't some. 
Fairly typical kettle helms were certainly in use by 1250 as they're illustrated in the collection of illustrated Bible stories known as the Maciejowski Bible.
Most good arms and armour books cover kettle helms as part of the larger study.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Wed 14 Mar, 2007 8:18 am Post subject: |
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Interesting thread. Too bad the diachronic span is rather narrow...
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Jared Smith
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Thu 15 Mar, 2007 12:05 am Post subject: |
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They appear in english art at least by the start of the 13th. I have not looked any earlier but there are a series of books called early gothic art, gothic art and late gothic art which divide much of the medieval periods artwork and it has some nice pictures of them from the early 13th.
RPM
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Thu 15 Mar, 2007 1:45 am Post subject: |
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It appears that kettlehats showed up in the last decades of the 12th century. They are rare, but present in the artwork of the period, as well as mentioned in written sources.
They seem to have been pretty much the standards infantry helmet in the 13th century, in various forms.
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Thu 15 Mar, 2007 9:07 am Post subject: |
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That link about the Frankish helmet is funny, although it's not really a kettle-hat thing. But I can see the relation--it might not be all that far-fetched to claim that helmets with all-round brims existed all the way from the 5th to the 17th century at least.
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Jared Smith
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| Posted: Thu 15 Mar, 2007 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Lafayette C Curtis wrote: | | That link about the Frankish helmet is funny, although it's not really a kettle-hat thing. But I can see the relation--it might not be all that far-fetched to claim that helmets with all-round brims existed all the way from the 5th to the 17th century at least. |
I have thought the same thing. As the link points out in its article, there are no surviving examples. It does not seem to be depicted in later chess pieces or similar items that might help corroborate it as having existed. There were numerous depictions of it though, which seems pretty suspicious if it never existed. Some JUSTOR articles seem to accept it as fact during the Carolingian era. I figure an early form of it may have been around during or near the end of the migration era... we just don't have much proof of it.
Helmets that had some rough similarity with the kettle hat might have existed for gladiator matches. I have not tried to check Hollywood's interpretation on that one. I am hoping one of the forum Roman history enthusiasts will comment on it.
Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Hisham Gaballa
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| Posted: Thu 15 Mar, 2007 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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I think you are thinking of one of these (click on the thumbnail):
It is a helmet with a brim. But as far as I know, they were only ever used by gladiators.
The Ancient Greeks also used a helmet with a brim in the 4th century BC. It's often called a Boeotian helmet.
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Jared Smith
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| Posted: Thu 15 Mar, 2007 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Hisham Gaballa wrote: | I think you are thinking of one of these (click on the thumbnail):
It is a helmet with a brim. But as far as I know, they were only ever used by gladiators.
The Ancient Greeks also used a helmet with a brim in the 4th century BC. It's often called a Boeotian helmet. |
Yes...that's the one. Its true form and origin are disputed, but considered B.C. era whatever its form originally was.
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0004-3079(19...0.CO%3B2-Y
Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 15 Mar, 2007 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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They go even further then that. Here's some reproductions of 5th-4th century BC examples:
http://www.noricum.de/html/hallstattzeit.html
These are based on the bell-shaped helmets (which go back much further to at least the late bronze age)
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Jared Smith
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| Posted: Thu 15 Mar, 2007 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeroen Zuiderwijk wrote: | | They go even further then that.) |
Sincerely, Thanks Jeroen.
I feel these have enough resemblance to later kettle helms to be given consideration in the history or evolution of the kettle helm. The efficient form, fit, and function are not necessarily modern and appear to have been realized and appreciated fairly early.
Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Fri 16 Mar, 2007 2:18 am Post subject: |
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They do however not become "mainstream" until around 1200, posibly a few decades before.
It seems like the early kettlehats had rather narrow brims.
A selection of norwegian helmets form the 12th and 13th cent, including several early kettlehats.
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Fri 16 Mar, 2007 2:47 am Post subject: |
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Elling,
Do you know which lewis chessmen they refer to in the clear kettlehelm BM122? I take it means British Museum but I have just reviewed my pictures and did not spot it? I have seen the other part of the colelction in Edinbugh and never spoted anything beside the wierd BM120 style, sort of a mix of a kettle helm-skull. Thanks for the illustration. Could I ask where it came from? Loks like a interesting read.
RPM
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Fri 16 Mar, 2007 3:05 am Post subject: |
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These ones?
Edit: Or did you mean MB 122?
on the left...
Edit AGAIN: uhm, it's me that's confused...
The drawings are compiled by Endre Fodstad, of Kongshirden 1308, and are not not part of a larger work, except for a similar writeup on shields;
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/2198/englishnorwegian3cm4.jpg
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/5954/englishdanish2xz7.jpg
Since the chessmen are carved, the helmets are naturally narrow brimmed. However, there are some illustrations, and actual finds of short brimmed kettlehats from this period
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Fri 16 Mar, 2007 4:07 am Post subject: |
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Elling,
Thanks, Yeah my mistake. A friend of mine sent me the digital postcard of them from the BM and it is on there. Thanks for the close up though. It is interesting the one that is a flat top kettle though. Multiuse? Serves as a helmet and caldron....
Very nice drawings as well.
RPM
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Fri 16 Mar, 2007 4:28 am Post subject: |
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| Hisham Gaballa wrote: | | The Ancient Greeks also used a helmet with a brim in the 4th century BC. It's often called a Boeotian helmet. |
Ah. The pilos helmet. Now I can't help wondering about how long it survived--perhaps absorbed and assimilated by the Romans? I've actually seen a modern illustration of an early Republican Roman spearman wearing a pilos-helmet, but it pointed to a period when the pilos was still in general use in Greece anyway. Any evidence of them surfacing up in a later period?
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Fri 16 Mar, 2007 4:29 am Post subject: |
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Well, the word kettlehat IS derived from the same root as kettle. In Norwegian they are called "stalhufu" or steel cap in earlier sources, and "Jernhatt", iron hat, in later.
Presumably, this is due to their resemblance to a brimmed felt hatt.
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Hisham Gaballa
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| Posted: Sat 17 Mar, 2007 2:05 am Post subject: |
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| Lafayette C Curtis wrote: |
Ah. The pilos helmet. Now I can't help wondering about how long it survived--perhaps absorbed and assimilated by the Romans? I've actually seen a modern illustration of an early Republican Roman spearman wearing a pilos-helmet, but it pointed to a period when the pilos was still in general use in Greece anyway. Any evidence of them surfacing up in a later period? |
Actually I was thinking of one of these:
I can't remember where i scanned it from. It's either from "An Historical Guide to Arms and Armour" by Stephen Bull and Tony North, or from Osprey's "The Army of Alexander the Great" by Nick Sekunda.
Isn't the pilos the conical helmet worn by the Spartans?
W
hat this reflects is how practical a design the kettle hat is, so it keeps getting reinvented.
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This is a standard topic
