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Jeanry Chandler
Location: New Orleans, Louisiana Joined: 07 Feb 2004
Posts: 62
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 Posted: Tue 24 Feb, 2004 9:56 pm Post subject: Schwiezersabel |
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One of the many things I have learned while browsing myArmoury.com is of the existence of this very odd weapon, apparently a late Renaissance era two-handed saber, believed (according to the brief mention here at myArmoury) to be a cross between a saber and a bastard sword. Several examples can be found in the historical weapons galleries on this site, under sabers. Another wierd feature is that they have extensive hand-guards, the like of which I've never seen on a two handed weapon. (I can post links if necessary)
Does anyone know anything about this weapon, or know where I can find out more about it's actual use? I'm working on some new weapons for a friends RPG game and I was thinking of adding this one in, but I need to find out a bit more about it. Doesn't seem to show up in my Oakeshottes records of the medieval sword!
I had so much good luck with the Falx (thanks for that!) I figured I might strike gold again here. Any help would be appreciated.
Jeanry Chandler
"A strong people do not ned a strong leader."
Emiliano Zapata
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David Lannon
Location: East Bay California Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 129
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| Posted: Wed 25 Feb, 2004 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Swiss Sabers are one of my all time favorite swords (Albion are you listening????) I currently have
two repros. One from Tinker and one from ARMART. The Tinker is schedualed to go to Erik Stevenson
this Summer and have the plain hilt re-done with a full Swiss basket.
When I get home I will post pics
Good, Bad, I'm the guy with the gun!!!!
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Wed 25 Feb, 2004 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Jeanry,
These types of swords are actually less of a cross between a bastard sword and a saber, and more of a cross between a bastard sword and a falchion. Not all have complex hand guards: Some are very plain with little ornation, some have elaborate hand protection. From my knowledge (which is limited on this particular sword type, though I' have always liked the design), these were seen the most in the 15th and 16th century in the German and Swiss areas. Somebody please chime in with more accurate dates.
As for use, I know there are some German fight manuals that show it, though none that I'm familiar with. There are other manuals that show the single handed messer, which can easily be adopted to the two handed technique. Codex Wallerstein comes to mind: Even though the messer is single handed, if you look at the plates, you can see how to easily adopt the techniques to a two handed version.
While I haven't really studied the usage of this weapon, I imagine it would be used pretty much like a longsword (minus the back edge). It's design would probably make it a better cutter/chopper than the longsword, but the same design would also make it less effective on the thrust.
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Jeremiah Swanger
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| Posted: Wed 25 Feb, 2004 1:30 pm Post subject: Yep |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: |
As for use, I know there are some German fight manuals that show it, though none that I'm familiar with. There are other manuals that show the single handed messer, which can easily be adopted to the two handed technique. Codex Wallerstein comes to mind: Even though the messer is single handed, if you look at the plates, you can see how to easily adopt the techniques to a two handed version.
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The Messer is illustrated in Talhoffer as well. I didn't find that particular short series of plates to be excessively useful, however- it was shown primarily in the context of judicial dueling.
"Rhaegar fought nobly.
Rhaegar fought valiantly.
Rhaegar fought honorably.
And Rhaegar died."
- G.R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire
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Angus Trim
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| Posted: Wed 25 Feb, 2004 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: | Hi Jeanry,
These types of swords are actually less of a cross between a bastard sword and a saber, and more of a cross between a bastard sword and a falchion. Not all have complex hand guards: Some are very plain with little ornation, some have elaborate hand protection. From my knowledge (which is limited on this particular sword type, though I' have always liked the design), these were seen the most in the 15th and 16th century in the German and Swiss areas. Somebody please chime in with more accurate dates.
As for use, I know there are some German fight manuals that show it, though none that I'm familiar with. There are other manuals that show the single handed messer, which can easily be adopted to the two handed technique. Codex Wallerstein comes to mind: Even though the messer is single handed, if you look at the plates, you can see how to easily adopt the techniques to a two handed version.
While I haven't really studied the usage of this weapon, I imagine it would be used pretty much like a longsword (minus the back edge). It's design would probably make it a better cutter/chopper than the longsword, but the same design would also make it less effective on the thrust. |
Hi Bill
Actually, you're referring to a different critter. There really were hand and a half and two hand sabers in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries with blades very similar in profile to the more modern 19th century sabers we're all more familiar with. Survivors are found in Switzerland and Hungary mainly, but if you search a bit, you'll find our friend Bjorn Helquist with a two hand saber in his mitts. The photo was taken in a museum in Sweden.
I have specs and somewhere have photos of two swords in Hungary, one a hand and a half saber, one single hand. Both have squared off wheel pommels and S-curved crosses.
I used to have photos, can't find them anymore, of a couple of Swiss sabers, one of which dates to roughly 1540. Very modern looking blade, hand and a half hilt, with a half basket. Very, very different beasts than the large messers.....
Still have specs of the one.........
Auld Dawg
swords are fun
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Wed 25 Feb, 2004 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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You know, Gus, I just assumed those were variants of the same type of sword. In the same way that a type XIIa and an XVIIIb are different types of longswords: different handling characteristics, but still used within the same broad form of techniques.
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Angus Trim
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| Posted: Thu 26 Feb, 2004 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: | | You know, Gus, I just assumed those were variants of the same type of sword. In the same way that a type XIIa and an XVIIIb are different types of longswords: different handling characteristics, but still used within the same broad form of techniques. |
Hi Bill
I think in the case of the Swiss and Hungarian hand and a half sabers, you could likely use "longsword" techiques quite easily, as virtually all of them I'm aware of have a false edge. And generally, the curvature is fairly mild.......
swords are fun
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Shawn Duncanson
Location: Spokane Wa Joined: 05 Dec 2003
Posts: 49
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| Posted: Thu 26 Feb, 2004 11:13 am Post subject: pics |
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definately post your pics of these saber, all of them!! These are my favorite swords and what I have found in hte forums is about all I have been able to find picture wise> 
Not all who wander are lost.
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Scott Byler
Location: New Mexico Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Thu 26 Feb, 2004 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: pics |
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| Shawn Duncanson wrote: | | definately post your pics of these saber, all of them!! These are my favorite swords and what I have found in hte forums is about all I have been able to find picture wise> |
Yeah, what Shawn said...   *Anybody* with pics, please post some. I can't find enough and I've been looking...
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Russ Mitchell
Location: Irving, TX Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Mon 01 Mar, 2004 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Angus Trim wrote: |
I have specs and somewhere have photos of two swords in Hungary, one a hand and a half saber, one single hand. Both have squared off wheel pommels and S-curved crosses.
Auld Dawg |
Ah, amigo, but when are you going to MAKE one? I'm still hoping that StupidFace can get itself a companion...
(yes, I know it's a technical nightmare...)
10,000 lemmings can't be wrong.
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Angus Trim
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| Posted: Mon 01 Mar, 2004 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Russ Mitchell wrote: | | Angus Trim wrote: |
I have specs and somewhere have photos of two swords in Hungary, one a hand and a half saber, one single hand. Both have squared off wheel pommels and S-curved crosses.
Auld Dawg |
Ah, amigo, but when are you going to MAKE one? I'm still hoping that StupidFace can get itself a companion...
(yes, I know it's a technical nightmare...)
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Hi Russ
In my copious free time this winter, I've finished up a couple of practice rapier prototypes {fullered on the one hand, and the other "superlight"}, finished sideswords, sparring and sharp, finished some heavier longswords, and am damn near done with my first "greatswords". I've done another few backsword projects, including a baskethilt that handles like an antique, sparring and sharp, a bastard backsword or two....... so, I've finished most of the projects in front of the sabers.... I have a slight hang up on the greatsword......... hopefully find or create time to finish that..........this week.
Don't tell anyone, but when I get the greatswords out of r&d, sabers are next. At this stage of the game, I don't intend to let anything else distract me from this {unless its female distraction, can't help myself then}.........
Right now, I'm lookin' for a way to have a couple of good antiques here for a couple of months for more study {handling and dynamic balance}........
Auld Dawg
swords are fun
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Russ Mitchell
Location: Irving, TX Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Mon 01 Mar, 2004 2:24 pm Post subject: Hrm... |
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Well, I know where you can find the antiques, and I know where you can find a guy who's handled the antiques (part of an old debate, he finally admitted that I was right, and he was shocked to see just how effortlessly they handled). What I **can't,** unfortunately, do, is get you access to the antiques... the Hungarian armory is still locked down just as tight as it was...
I will, however, be in Budapest from the 10th-17th of March, and what I **might** be able to do is to take additional pictures of one of said sabres...
Yeah, I knwo about your to-do list, that's part of why I haven't bugged you lately. That longsword you did for Bob Charron looked and felt pretty good, btw...
10,000 lemmings can't be wrong.
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Angus Trim
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| Posted: Mon 01 Mar, 2004 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: Hrm... |
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| Russ Mitchell wrote: | Well, I know where you can find the antiques, and I know where you can find a guy who's handled the antiques (part of an old debate, he finally admitted that I was right, and he was shocked to see just how effortlessly they handled). What I **can't,** unfortunately, do, is get you access to the antiques... the Hungarian armory is still locked down just as tight as it was...
I will, however, be in Budapest from the 10th-17th of March, and what I **might** be able to do is to take additional pictures of one of said sabres...
Yeah, I knwo about your to-do list, that's part of why I haven't bugged you lately. That longsword you did for Bob Charron looked and felt pretty good, btw... |
Hi Russ
Yeah, actually, I'm thru the to do list to get to the sabers. If no one else jumps me on something else, I'll be doing sabers sometime this year {sooner rather than later hopefully}. Now I'm in full "semi-research" mode again.... just re-read all of that stuff you sent me three years ago for instance..........
If a couple of additional pictures happen to fall your way, I certainly wouldn't mind seeing them. Look for a PM here in the next couple of days. After two computer crashes and one virus attack, I've managed to lose both yours and Anna's email addresses........ over a year ago. About the time I believe I was supposed to look out for a friend of your's email over a sword.........
ahhh well...........such is life..........
Auld Dawg
swords are fun
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Chris Holzman
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| Posted: Mon 01 Mar, 2004 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Russ Mitchell wrote: | | Angus Trim wrote: |
I have specs and somewhere have photos of two swords in Hungary, one a hand and a half saber, one single hand. Both have squared off wheel pommels and S-curved crosses.
Auld Dawg |
Ah, amigo, but when are you going to MAKE one? I'm still hoping that StupidFace can get itself a companion...
(yes, I know it's a technical nightmare...)
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Hehe.... StupidFace is just tooooo much fun.
Chris Holzman
River City Fencing Club
Wichita, KS
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Russ Mitchell
Location: Irving, TX Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Tue 02 Mar, 2004 6:46 am Post subject: |
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Yep. Now if it were only eight inches longer and eight ounces lighter, with a crosspiece that wasn't grossly over=built... THEN stupidface would live up to its reputation...
(for those of you not in the know, my hungarian bastard sabre replica is called StupidFace because it's such a balls-to-the-wall design that the first time anybody sees it, they wind up with a realy stupid look on their face...)
10,000 lemmings can't be wrong.
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Scott Byler
Location: New Mexico Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Tue 02 Mar, 2004 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Russ Mitchell wrote: | Yep. Now if it were only eight inches longer and eight ounces lighter, with a crosspiece that wasn't grossly over=built... THEN stupidface would live up to its reputation...
(for those of you not in the know, my hungarian bastard sabre replica is called StupidFace because it's such a balls-to-the-wall design that the first time anybody sees it, they wind up with a realy stupid look on their face...) |
You wouldn't have a picture to share, would you? I promise I'll tell if a stupid face appears on me.
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Russ Mitchell
Location: Irving, TX Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Wed 03 Mar, 2004 2:45 pm Post subject: Chris H has it... |
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If you saw my article in Spada, it's the one in my hand there. Otherwise, Holzman currently has it, so maybe we can harass him for a photo...
10,000 lemmings can't be wrong.
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Chris Holzman
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| Posted: Wed 03 Mar, 2004 5:54 pm Post subject: Re: Chris H has it... |
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| Russ Mitchell wrote: | | If you saw my article in Spada, it's the one in my hand there. Otherwise, Holzman currently has it, so maybe we can harass him for a photo... |
Everyone,
I'm up in Topeka for law school, and the sabre is at home in Wichita. I'll take a pic and post it up first thing when I get home to Wichita on friday afternoon.
Just to irritate ya'll some more though, I will say this:
StupidFace handles in a class by itself, and cuts like you won't believe. It absolutely demolishes 2 inch bamboo without even feeling it. It is however, massively overbuilt, to the point of unweildability one handed (for me). two handed, its great, though a bit hefty. Some of the things that can be done with the weapon, are absolutely eyepopping.
more friday evening.
chris
Chris Holzman
River City Fencing Club
Wichita, KS
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Russ Mitchell
Location: Irving, TX Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Thu 04 Mar, 2004 7:52 am Post subject: |
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Yep, the smith, who is a god with sabres but whose swords are very iffy (and I've found this almost universally to be the case, that bladesmiths do one or the other well, but not both), misunderstood my terrible Hungarian, and thought I wanted it for stage combat... I ground it down quite a bit manually, but the hilt furniture is at least three times thicker than it ought to be.
Then again, I got it for roughly US$40 at the time, since he'd put so little work in it, so it's not like I can actually complain...
10,000 lemmings can't be wrong.
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Angus Trim
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| Posted: Thu 04 Mar, 2004 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| Russ Mitchell wrote: | Yep, the smith, who is a god with sabres but whose swords are very iffy (and I've found this almost universally to be the case, that bladesmiths do one or the other well, but not both), misunderstood my terrible Hungarian, and thought I wanted it for stage combat... I ground it down quite a bit manually, but the hilt furniture is at least three times thicker than it ought to be.
Then again, I got it for roughly US$40 at the time, since he'd put so little work in it, so it's not like I can actually complain... |
Hi Russ
Tinker does real good swords, and in my view real good sabers. I've owned two of his sabers, and would again...
That's the thing that took me so long to get this far. First I wanted to get to the point that I could look at my own stuff and feel satisfied. I've been there for several months, Function, form, and handling, I feel real comfortable with my stuff these days, particularly when you factor in the price range........
I'm real happy with the basket backsword. Don't know why no photos have gone "up", but there have been other new projects finished that have taken months to "go live" too...{shrug}.
Now I'm ready to tackle sabers. There are several antique sabers up at Pat Tuffer's place, and I need to make another pilgrimage up there. A "quality" antique has a certain "character" to its handling, that if you can find it in your repro, you're getting close. Even though we're in my "busy" time right now, I've gotten bit by the bug. A bit more research, a bit of a decision about the style of blade, then some quality time in front of the computer "laying out" the blade as I want it.......
I intend to do as well with the sabers as I have with the swords........ nothing else will be acceptable........
Auld Dawg
swords are fun
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