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Jason G. Smith
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 Posted: Sun 28 Jan, 2007 7:22 pm Post subject: Lentner/jupon question |
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A quick question - although I know this may very well turn into a debate - about the lentner/jupon as worn by Charles VI or Walter Von Hohenklingen. It has already been established that the cuirass/breastplate was typically worn over the lentner in Germany, yet under it in France/England. Is there any evidence of a coat of plates or brigandine being worn under this type of fabric armour? I've been thinking of going this route with my kit, but would like some input from the good folks here, as my research in this direction has been inconclusive to date. Thanks!
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Al Muckart
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| Posted: Sun 28 Jan, 2007 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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Chuck Davis over at [url http://www.mallet-argent.com]mallet argent[/url] has some pictures of the Charles V armour up on his website which show a brigandine being worn under the jupon.
You can find the pictures at http://www.mallet-argent.com/chartres.html
Note that some of the armour pictured, particularly the right arm armour is a horrible mock up placeholder stuck in for display, and doesn't represent the actual armour. The coat armour, jupon and doublet are extant as far as I'm aware.
Hope this helps.
--
Al.
http://wherearetheelves.net
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Hugh Knight
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| Posted: Sun 28 Jan, 2007 10:56 pm Post subject: Re: Lentner/jupon question |
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| Jason G. Smith wrote: | | A quick question - although I know this may very well turn into a debate - about the lentner/jupon as worn by Charles VI or Walter Von Hohenklingen. It has already been established that the cuirass/breastplate was typically worn over the lentner in Germany, yet under it in France/England. Is there any evidence of a coat of plates or brigandine being worn under this type of fabric armour? I've been thinking of going this route with my kit, but would like some input from the good folks here, as my research in this direction has been inconclusive to date. Thanks! |
Hi Jason,
My harness is designed around the Charles VI harness, to include a very cool lentner (call it what you will), so this is very important to me. I wear a Churburg #14 style breastplate under mine (see picture below).
When you ask about "coat of plates/brigandine", what do you mean? If you mean Wisby or Kussnach-style coats of plates, then I can answer for you: No. They wouldn't support the shaping the garment worked so hard to give (of course, with my--ahem--"figure" that's not really an issue, but for Charles VI it would have been. On the other hand, if you're talking about a globose-breasted coat of plates (the term "corrazzina" has popped up in some circles over the last few years to describe this type of armor), then I think it's very likely that could have been worn under the lentner. This could have been either of the front-opening style such as the velvet-covered kludge at the Met or the side-opening style (really more of a covered breastplate). I actually suspect that knights wore a variety of kinds of body protection under their lentners depending upon the situation, from just an haubergeon to adding a simple breastplate to a full breastplate or globose-breasted coat of plates.
Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
 Attachment: 71.66 KB
Globose-breasted coat of plates
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Me in my Charles VI harness
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James Barker
Location: Ashburn VA Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 365
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| Posted: Mon 29 Jan, 2007 6:58 am Post subject: |
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FYI the pictured brigandine is not actually associated with he Charles VI armor, it is a 16th century brigandine.
1400 (date of the coat armor) is too late for a coat of plates, which was considered out of style at Wisby, but brigandines are in use. Many images show just a maille shirt with a globose plate around this time too.
James Barker
Historic Life http://www.historiclife.com/index.html
Archer in La Belle Compagnie http://www.labelle.org/
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Jason G. Smith
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| Posted: Mon 29 Jan, 2007 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| James Barker wrote: |
FYI the pictured brigandine is not actually associated with he Charles VI armor, it is a 16th century brigandine.
1400 (date of the coat armor) is too late for a coat of plates, which was considered out of style at Wisby, but brigandines are in use. Many images show just a maille shirt with a globose plate around this time too. |
Phew - you had me worried, there. I looked at that brigandine, and thought my timelines were all messed up! 
As for the corrazina, that was exactly the type of thing I was looking into. I've got a whole lot of excess canvas lying around here, and I thought it would make a good material for a brigandine, but wanted the jupon/lentner style of armour to boot. Wanted to make sure that historically, I wasn't put my foot in my mouth.
Second quick question - would voiders (gussets of mail) have been in use around the time of the jupon c.1380? I'd like to forgo the full mail hauberk underneath if I can. I'm heavy enough as-is!
As I was tooling around the internet looking for corrazina's I came upon this link:
http://hermineradieuse.aceboard.fr/14766-5135...razina.htm
It's contructed of maille and plate, and it says circa 1380. Just thought I'd share.
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Al Muckart
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| Posted: Mon 29 Jan, 2007 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| James Barker wrote: |
FYI the pictured brigandine is not actually associated with he Charles VI armor, it is a 16th century brigandine.
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Cool, thanks for the clarification.
--
Al.
http://wherearetheelves.net
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Hugh Knight
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| Posted: Mon 29 Jan, 2007 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Jason G. Smith wrote: | | Second quick question - would voiders (gussets of mail) have been in use around the time of the jupon c.1380? I'd like to forgo the full mail hauberk underneath if I can. I'm heavy enough as-is! |
I just spoke with Robert MacPherson about this a week ago. He said there's no solid evidence either way, but he certainly believes that voiders were possible and likely by the late 14th century--as soon as complete breastplates were in place (which the globose-breasted coat of plates certainly is).
He also suggested that they may have worn *partial* mail shirts--just the arms and upper chest with a mail fauld below. I'll attach a copy of the picture he used as his example.
That's the kind of thing I was referring to as a side-opening globose-breasted coat of plates in my original post.
Attachment: 26.68 KB
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Jason G. Smith
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| Posted: Mon 29 Jan, 2007 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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Sweet... Thanks for the help guys. I've been lurking on this site for ages, finally decided to go for it, and you came through - I'm pretty sure I've got what I need now. Here's the basic harness I'm looking at, tell me if anything's out of place:
Klappvisor Bascinet
Arming pourpoint, lightly padded
Voiders
Corrazina
Splinted arm defences
Leather cuisses either gamboissed or splinted - not sure yet
Plate greaves
Jupon over all this goodness.
Solerets
Anything wholly out of place here?
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Hugh Knight
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| Posted: Mon 29 Jan, 2007 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Jason G. Smith wrote: | Sweet... Thanks for the help guys. I've been lurking on this site for ages, finally decided to go for it, and you came through - I'm pretty sure I've got what I need now. Here's the basic harness I'm looking at, tell me if anything's out of place:
Klappvisor Bascinet
Arming pourpoint, lightly padded
Voiders
Corrazina
Splinted arm defences
Leather cuisses either gamboissed or splinted - not sure yet
Plate greaves
Jupon over all this goodness.
Solerets
Anything wholly out of place here? |
Splinted arms and legs--I can't *prove* them wrong for this harness, but they'd certainly be very atypical for it. Every single picture of this kind of lentner/jupon/whatever you want to call it has shown plate legs, just as the real harness had. Bit the bullet--get someone to make you spring steel arms and legs (which is what I have) and you'll be *amazed* at how light and comfortable they are--and remember, the vambraces needn't be articulate on lames--the real ones weren't. I can supply you with contacts for several armorers of varying skill and price who can help you with that.
The Klappvisor tends to be more German. You see them *occasionally* in England and France toward the beginning of the period, but in the later 14th century (which is where this coat belongs) you'd be much more likely to see a hounskull visor (which is what went with this particular harness).
I see little or no reason to pad your arming doublet.
You left out gauntlets: You need a set of hourglass finger gauntlets. Here's a link to a photograph of mine:
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/gauntlet.html
You also need some sort of heavy knightly belt with all sorts of fancy cast bits on it. They were all the rage. A plaque belt would actually be best.
Attachment: 52.42 KB
These are the real Charles VI gauntlets
Attachment: 53.28 KB
Real Charles VI vambrace
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Jason G. Smith
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| Posted: Mon 29 Jan, 2007 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Splinted arms and legs--I can't *prove* them wrong for this harness, but they'd certainly be very atypical for it. Every single picture of this kind of lentner/jupon/whatever you want to call it has shown plate legs, just as the real harness had. Bit the bullet--get someone to make you spring steel arms and legs (which is what I have) and you'll be *amazed* at how light and comfortable they are--and remember, the vambraces needn't be articulate on lames--the real ones weren't. I can supply you with contacts for several armorers of varying skill and price who can help you with that.
The Klappvisor tends to be more German. You see them *occasionally* in England and France toward the beginning of the period, but in the later 14th century (which is where this coat belongs) you'd be much more likely to see a hounskull visor (which is what went with this particular harness).
I see little or no reason to pad your arming doublet.
You left out gauntlets: You need a set of hourglass finger gauntlets. Here's a link to a photograph of mine:
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/gauntlet.html
You also need some sort of heavy knightly belt with all sorts of fancy cast bits on it. They were all the rage. A plaque belt would actually be best. |
The reason for the splinted arms and cuisses is, well, I like it! And I know they were in common usage in this period - I'm just not sure about the combination. The combination of studded cuisses and plate greaves I'm pretty sure I've seen a number of times (unless I just keep seeing the same effigy all the time... !)
As for the klappvisor, well - I've already got it, so it's gonna stay!
padding in the arming doublet to be very minimal - a layer of linen, one of thin batting, and the outer shell - for comfort's sake. The image below from a 14th century reenactment group show the model I'd like to use. The site's since been taken down.
I may very well go with the plate arms, but as this is my first kit, I'm trying to keep cost down and still keep it correct and to my liking. Some compromises may need to be made here for my wallet! Studded arms were because I can easily make them myself...
As for the gauntlets, I've got a pair on order with the folks over at knights armoury. I was swayed by the review I saw here, and went for it. Hourglass with full brass trim.
The rest of my harness has been bought piecemeal from mercenary's tailor, who by the way offer excellent service and a good quality munitions armour. I'm very satisfied with the fit and finish of my stuff so far. I've gotten the spaulders, 14th century cops and poleyns, and the greaves (which were adjusted to fit my beefy shins...). I've contacted Allan Senefelder about a globose breastplate, but after some thought and your collective input, I'll probably go with a corrazina. The way I see it, no need for spit and polish and an all whyte harness - it'll be hidden from view with the lentner. I was considering the splinted arms from merc tailor as well, but am pondering making them myself.
Spaulders: http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/spaulder.jpg
Couters: http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/elbow%20.jpg
Poleyns: http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/Knee%20copp.jpg
greaves: http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/greaves.jpg
and the splinted arms I was considering: http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/images/spli...er%201.jpg
I was also concerned about the time frame for the type of couter and poleyn I got, but I seem to see them used interchangeably until late in the century with the more common winged variety. Correct me if I'm wrong again!
I'll make the rerebrace myself, if only for me to be able to say I contributed to the harness!
Oh, and there's a brigandine gorget in there too for safety reasons. I prefer not to have a point accidentally pierce my throat...! Anachronistic, I know, but in some regards I can't fathom them not having some kind of neck protection in period.
At any rate, everything is done with floating articulations so far. No lames involved!
Still think biting the bullet for encased plate arms is the way to go?
As always, comments and pointers welcome and appreciated.
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