| myArmoury.com is now completely member-supported. Please contribute to our efforts with a donation. Your donations will go towards updating our site, modernizing it, and keeping it viable long-term.
Last 10 Donors: Anonymous, Daniel Sullivan, Chad Arnow, Jonathan Dean, M. Oroszlany, Sam Arwas, Barry C. Hutchins, Dan Kary, Oskar Gessler, Dave Tonge (View All Donors) |
| Author |
Message |
|
Al Muckart
|
 Posted: Mon 29 Jan, 2007 2:34 am Post subject: arming points |
 |
|
I'm curious as to what people who fight regularly in high-quality reproduction armour are using for arming points since it's one of these details that doesn't seem to get a lot of attention.
I haven't exactly been exposed to a lot of people using seriously high quality armour (Having just moved to the vicinity, I managed to be out of town for the jousing at Harcourt Park this year, darn it!) so everyone I've seen (including people wearing seriously high quality reproduction 15th century civilian dress) was using modern machine-produced cord as far as I could see.
How a man shall be armed says:
| Quote: | | ... the armynge poyntis muste be made of fyne twyne suche as men make stryngis for crossbowes and they muste be trussid small and poyntid as poyntis. Also they muste be wexid with cordeweneris coode. |
Does anyone know exactly what fibre period crossbow strings were made from? I think linen is a likely candidate because it's strong and has a very long staple so based on that passage, I am assuming some kind of linen cord well waxed with code and having 'points' or chapes/aglets on the ends.
"Cordwainers coode" is a substance for which no period recipies exist, but which we can extrapolate based on it's unbroken use in shoemaking up to the present day, as a mixture of pine pitch or rosin and , optionally some kind of oil depending on the climate you're in. Cold climates need oil or it ends up too hard.
The function of cordwainers code is to lock stitches together inside the channel the awl has made, and it has exactly the same effect on knots, locking them extremely securely.
I happen to have a fair amount of code floating around right now for shoemaking and having gotten several thousand metres of 8/1 linen I just made up a length of 5 loop fingerloop braid from linen stands individually waxed with code, after which I waxed the braid.
The end result is a phenomenally strong, square, braid which takes knots very securely and which is almost totally impervious to moisture and rot.
I suck at fingerloop braiding, and the chapes I've made are a bit rough to say the least, but I'm intending to make a stack of these over the next week and use them on my armour to see how they go.
--
Al.
http://wherearetheelves.net
|
|
   |
 |
|
Kel Rekuta
|
| Posted: Mon 29 Jan, 2007 3:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
Al,
That is awesome! Exactly what is it and how did you found your linen? I'm in the shoe supplies industry and can get just about any commercial linen thread combination. Everything I have on hand is right or left twist 3 to 8 cord #18. I have some "hand flax" as the old guys call it, for twisting up your own thread. Is that what you call 8/1?
As to what we use on our kit? I like waxed cotton dress laces. They don't seem to wear out. Take off the plastic shrink aiglette and add a metal cone aiglette and they're good to go. I've given tons of different types of shoe laces to the boys for their kit. Soft braided ones seem to last longer that hard "boot" laces. Waxing makes them stay tied better. I got some German hand thread wax, pretty sticky stuff. (Gnomenvax)
The one thing that makes points last longer is leather lacing tabs. Most munition armour has lacing holes through the metal at every point. Some items have to be this way but most do not. Its a small thing but usually overlooked.
I'm sure you've already tried or found most of this if you are to the level of hand braiding your own laces. However, someone else may not have so I mention it. I'd love to see some progress photos of this project. I am absolutely fascinated by this kind of detail. Thanks for sharing.
Cheers!
Kel
|
|
|
|
|
|
Martin Forrester
Location: Huddersfield Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 42
|
| Posted: Mon 29 Jan, 2007 4:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
This company do hard to find linnen threads
http://www.zsag.ch/
I am told that if you want to get it spot on, anyone who could afford good armour would use silk points. They last too, though they aren't cheap. If you know someone who has any linnen ones for sale, give me a shout cos i can't make them for toffee either.
Oh, lets just pull out our swords and start whacking at each other, that'll solve everything!
|
|
|
|
|
Merv Cannon
|
| Posted: Mon 29 Jan, 2007 5:08 am Post subject: Arming Points |
|
|
Hi Al......... As far as I know the main thread used for Historic Crossbows was and still is is Hemp ! I am told that hemp is so strong that its around 30 times stronger than modern Nylon rope of the same diameter. It's also waterproof which is why it has been used since ancient times for Anchor ropes. Not only waterproof but almost rot-proof and fungus resistant, salt resistant, acid-resistant, etc...this is what I've been told. Heres the link of a company here in Oz that sells it in four sizes... http://www.hempwa.com/category/index.php?categoryId=18 ....its hard to get here in Australia because folks here tend to immediately stop using anything they consider 'old' as soon as a new thing comes along, even if the new is not as good as the old !
I have squired for some of our combatants on occasion and have noticed every type of wierd points being used from leather strands (Army boot laces) to good plain old modern shoelaces !! They are always breaking ( which is why they carry spare shoelaces ! )....so good for you, Al for doing it properly ! Even though they break during combat, they still keep on using the thin shoelaces.....go figure !
While Im on a roll, the other thing that bugs me is that the harness leather straps are usually made of leather thats too thin, and again we get breakage. With the points, I have at least one reference from peroid art that shows the use of 'Particolour' points. Three colours in fact, platted together to form a very strong lacing point.
Good luck and thanks for the info.
Cheers.
 Attachment: 92.35 KB
Merv ....... KOLR
http://www.lionrampant.com.au/
"Then let slip the dogs of war ! "......Woof !
|
|
 |
|
Merv Cannon
|
| Posted: Mon 29 Jan, 2007 5:34 am Post subject: Re: arming points |
|
|
| Al Muckart wrote: | "Cordwainers coode" is a substance for which no period recipies exist, but which we can extrapolate based on it's unbroken use in shoemaking up to the present day, as a mixture of pine pitch or rosin and , optionally some kind of oil depending on the climate you're in. Cold climates need oil or it ends up too hard.
The function of cordwainers code is to lock stitches together inside the channel the awl has made, and it has exactly the same effect on knots, locking them extremely securely.
I happen to have a fair amount of code floating around right now for shoemaking and having gotten several thousand metres of 8/1 linen I just made up a length of 5 loop fingerloop braid from linen stands individually waxed with code, after which I waxed the braid.
The end result is a phenomenally strong, square, braid which takes knots very securely and which is almost totally impervious to moisture and rot.. |
Al.......... I've just had a look on the web and I am wondering.....this 'Pine-Pitch" or Rosin.....is it the same 'rosin' that sports stores sell in bags to put on the grips of Baseball bats to improve the grip ? If not, then what is it used for ....where can I get some ?
Thanks.
Merv ....... KOLR
http://www.lionrampant.com.au/
"Then let slip the dogs of war ! "......Woof !
|
|
|
|
|
|
Al Muckart
|
| Posted: Mon 29 Jan, 2007 12:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Kel Rekuta wrote: | Al,
That is awesome! Exactly what is it and how did you found your linen? I'm in the shoe supplies industry and can get just about any commercial linen thread combination. Everything I have on hand is right or left twist 3 to 8 cord #18. I have some "hand flax" as the old guys call it, for twisting up your own thread. Is that what you call 8/1?
|
The linen came from a Swedish supplier a friend of mine, who is Swedish, found. They actually screwed up the order, we thought we were buying 250gram spools and ended up with kilo+ spools with several km's of thread on them.
the "8/1" refers to the size and ply count of the cord. So it's relatively thickish single ply cord. The single ply part is important when you come to break it down for shoemaking threads because you don't cut it, you untwist and pull so you end up with a smooth taper on the ends for attaching a bristle. It sounds like it probably is the "hand flax" you have.
| Quote: |
I'm sure you've already tried or found most of this if you are to the level of hand braiding your own laces. However, someone else may not have so I mention it. I'd love to see some progress photos of this project. I am absolutely fascinated by this kind of detail. Thanks for sharing.
|
Heh, my fighting kit is far far from high level I just happened to need a lace to lace up the top of my bascinet padding and I had all this linen lying around 
--
Al.
http://wherearetheelves.net
|
|
|
|
|
|
Al Muckart
|
| Posted: Mon 29 Jan, 2007 12:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Martin Forrester wrote: | This company do hard to find linnen threads
http://www.zsag.ch/
I am told that if you want to get it spot on, anyone who could afford good armour would use silk points. They last too, though they aren't cheap. If you know someone who has any linnen ones for sale, give me a shout cos i can't make them for toffee either. |
Having done a quick bit of reading in Dress Accessories this morning before work it looks like silk would be a pretty good choice for arming points. I'm guessing it would end up a whole lot more flexible and therefore easier to tie securely than linen. I'll try and get quotes/references tonight once I'm home again. Linen was a sufficiently common fibre in period that braided linen points are probably quite defensible, particularly for things like holding hose up, which is what the next set I make will get used for though I won't be waxing those ones!
I don't know anyone who sells linen points. They aren't inherently difficult to make, they're just something that takes a bit of manual dexterity and a stack of practice - that and putting up with the blisters until you've developed the relevant calluses on your fingers 
http://fingerloop.org/ has a stack of information and patterns on various braids.
http://www.stringpage.com/braid/fl/fingerloop.html has instructions on how to do a basic 5 loop braid that I found clearer than the ones on fingerloop.org.
--
Al.
http://wherearetheelves.net
|
|
|
|
|
|
Al Muckart
|
| Posted: Mon 29 Jan, 2007 12:52 pm Post subject: Re: arming points |
|
|
Hi Merv,
| Merv Cannon wrote: |
| Al Muckart wrote: | "Cordwainers coode" is a substance for which no period recipies exist, but which we can extrapolate based on it's unbroken use in shoemaking up to the present day, as a mixture of pine pitch or rosin and , optionally some kind of oil depending on the climate you're in. Cold climates need oil or it ends up too hard.
|
Al.......... I've just had a look on the web and I am wondering.....this 'Pine-Pitch" or Rosin.....is it the same 'rosin' that sports stores sell in bags to put on the grips of Baseball bats to improve the grip ? If not, then what is it used for ....where can I get some ?
Thanks. |
Yup, that's the stuff. True pine pitch is different from rosin, but you can get rosin in various places depending on how much you need. Music stores will sell it to you for huge sums of money to rub on violin bows. Art stores will sell it for slightly less to make varnishes for oil paintings. A friend of mine got me a couple of kilos of it for less than AU$20 from an antique furniture restoration supplier in Brisbane and a friend found a source for it in NZ via a surf-wax maker of all things.
If you want to play with true pine pitch www.livergrease.co.uk sells it but I've never ordered from them.
There is a stack of information on coode on Marc Carlson's pages at http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/shoe/CODE.HTM which has a pretty good rundown of the state of knowlege on the topic and some recipies.
--
Al.
http://wherearetheelves.net
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum
|
This is a standard topic