[Al Muckart]

Apologies to the admins if this is the wrong forum, I'm looking for a piece of information which specifically relates to examples of historical armour so I'm posing it here.

In discussions on helm padding on this site I've seen a couple of people mention that David Edge has said that of the extant helm paddings held at the Royal Armouries, the vast majority are padded with raw cotton and none are padded with things like wool, horsehair etc.

Does anyone know of a citable published source that documents this specific fact?

I am also curious as to the weight of fabric used to cover period padding, I've experimentally verified that medium-weight linen is comfy and holds up Ok, and that thicker stuff gets wrinkled and uncomfortable but I'd love to know in detail.

[Randall Moffett]

Al,

I do not recollect that article but he wrote a article on head armour for the neurosurgery December 2000 vol 47,issue 6. The artifacts in this seem to mostly be Wallace collection pieces though (he works there).

I have gotten to examine some padded armour from the late medieval to 17th century padding. The ones from late medieval and early modern I have seen appear to be raw cotton wool as well but w/out testing it could be the raw wool.

RPM

[Al Muckart]

Thanks Randall, I found the article and from the abstract it looks quite interesting, but not interesting enough to drop US$25 on right now when I have other books on my list :-(

If David Edge is at the Wallace Collection I'll drop them an email with the specific question and see what they say.

Cheers.

[Randall Moffett]

last I saw he was. That was farily recently. I could look and see if I still have the article for you.

RPM

[Tobias Capwell]

Just thought I would add,

The lining of the sallet associated with the 'Avant' armour in Glasgow (E.1939.65.e, the armour Milanese c. 1440, the sallet probably Brescian, c. 1450-60) is stuffed with a thin layer of dried grass.

Off-prints of David Edge's Neurosurgery article are still available at:

http://kentrotman.com/ligonier/armour.htm

The catalogue number for the off-print is M106.

As DE points out in the article, several of the linings of helmets here at the Wallace are stuffed with horsehair. Not tail-hair, but the fine body hairs.

TC (Curator of Arms and Armour, Wallace Collection)

[Gordon Frye]

Dr. Capwell;

Thank you for joining us here at myArmoury! Let me welcome you with the hope that you will be able to help illuminate us in many of the things we discuss here, what with your access to and experience with original pieces etc.

Welcome aboard!

Cheers!

Gordon

[Richard Fay]

[Aaron J. Cergol]

while I do not know too much about the stuffing of the padding. But I do know (from Robert MacPherson) that the period padding/liner was usually only as thick as an average oven pot holder.

Hope this helps,

Aaron

[Al Muckart]

[Al Muckart]

Firstly welcome to the forum, and thanks for your response. Professional expertise is an invaluable addition to a place like this.

[Randall Moffett]

AL,

The citation is listed above for the article. Dr. Capwell also listed the current publisher. I could not find a copy but the library here seems to have that series but I have not found it yet.

AS far as the padding. It indeed would be used to absorb impact. having between 3/8 and some of padding is not an inch but with more padding it gets warmer and less ventilation. With armour it is about trade offs. If you could only wear your armour a few minutes it would be less useful.

Dr. Capwell,

Welcome. I hope your move south went well and without too many complications and you enjoying your new work place. I was hoping to make my way to the Wallace in a few weeks, a wonderful collection there!

Aaron,

Not to disagree with Robert MacPherson, but the few numbers of any head linings left would at one point probably been less compacted 400-500 years ago before they started to decompose etc. There are so few textile armour in general left I would assume the thickness of a average pot holder (3/8 or so) would be difficult to conclude as an accuate average historic thickness (not that it is not just would be hard to conclude an average with such a small sample size). The Wallace did have some out for display before and most were likely of that range though. At the castle museum we had a few helmets from the 17th still lined and they also were about that thick some were thicker but hard to tell exactly as they were still attached. One had padded check peices that were very padded but the lining was still in good condition so I do not know what was inside.

RPM

[Bruno Giordan]

[quote=\\\"Tobias Capwell\\\"] Just thought I would add,

The lining of the sallet associated with the \\\'Avant\\\' armour in Glasgow (E.1939.65.e, the armour Milanese c. 1440, the sallet probably Brescian, c. 1450-60) is stuffed with a thin layer of dried grass.

Off-prints of David Edge\\\'s Neurosurgery article are still available at:

http://kentrotman.com/ligonier/armour.htm

The catalogue number for the off-print is M106.

As DE points out in the article, several of the linings of helmets here at the Wallace are stuffed with horsehair. Not tail-hair, but the fine body hairs.

TC (Curator of Arms and Armour, Wallace Collection)

[/quote]

Dried grass.

Didn\\\'t know my compatriots were such scrounges .

[Al Muckart]

Hi all,

Firstly thank you all for your responses in this thread. I tracked down a copy of the neuroscience article - it's very interesting to see empirical numbers on things like plate thickness and details of the metallurgy. These are things which seem to be more often guessed at than not, though that is getting better as more information becomes more easily publicly available. I need to read it more.

Based on various pieces of information, and the information in the paper, I built a liner for the basincet I use for SCA combat[1] of linen stuffed with raw cotton and quilted with fairly chunky 1/2 inch or so running stitches.

The patterning of the liner means that when the points of the crown are all tied together it sits nicely on the top of my head supporting the weight of the helm.

Now, I'll say right up my helm is built for SCA combat, but it's a very nicely built helm custom built for me and well fitted to my head but it's a touch bigger than a period helm since it's got to allow for 1/2 inch of padding and it is significantly thicker and heavier than period helms, being built of 12 guage throughout (I've done SCA combat in a 16 guage helm and the extra mass really does make a difference). As a result of this the padding I built was a bit thicker than the period examples at between 1/2 and 5/8th's inch everywhere except low on the cheeks which were only about 1/8th since they don't contact my head and I can't get my head in and out of the hat if they're padded

I took some test hits in the newly padded helm this evening from a knight who's been fighting for over 15 years (so he has a good sense of how much power he's delivering) and rapidly came to the conclusion that I wouldn't do SCA combat in a helm padded with that liner.

I'd happily do controlled blow re-enactment combat, but not full speed/force SCA combat, which I realise isn't delivering anything like the forces to my head that a blow from a steel sword with killing intent would.

The liner is quite a bit more comfortable than the previous padding I had, which was a similar sewn-in linen clad liner of a very similar pattern, but padded with cloesd cell foam Despite the fact that they have about the same contact area with my head, the cotton stuffed liner it isn't anywhere near as effective as absorbing and spreading out the force of a blow as the foam one is.

Hits feel like far more of a percussive "knock", I'm guessing if you stuck it on an accelerometer you'd see a much steeper and sharper spike from a hit through the cotton liner than through the foam one. It was also quite a bit louder inside the hat and I felt like my head was being moved a lot more by the shots I was taking than I did before. The hardest shot I took was "good" in SCA terms, but on a 1-10 scale of "good" it was about a 6 and having taken a shot at about 13-15 last year that concussed me and left me not fighting for 6 months, the last shot felt like about a 10 or 11 through the foam would.

This was a very interesting experiment to make, even though it wasn't exactly controlled. I've got some washed but un-spun wool and I'm going to collect some horsehair and make another couple of versions padded with those materials and see what the differences are. It's really highlighted to me just how deficient, by modern standards, period head protection must have been since what I was wearing was probably a bit better protection than an actual period bascinet would have been, having more mass and a bit more padding. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to find that survivors came off the field "punch drunk", if not more damaged than that.

I've just pulled the liner out of the helm again, but I'll stick it back in and post pictures of helm and liner in the next couple of days.


[1] Yeah, I know it's nothing like the 'real thing', but I enjoy it

[Kel Rekuta]

[James Barker]

Al

How dense is your helm liner? I only use raw cotton in linen for SCA or living history and have no issues with it. My SCA liners are normally 4-5 inches thick before I quilt it down to 1/2 inch and they work like a charm, far better than any foam out there.

[Al Muckart]

[Al Muckart]

[James Barker]

Al

What is the difference to you in raw cotton and cotton wool? I understood them to be the same thing.

I use a pattern I made myself to get the right curve in my bascinet. I quilt down the padding with waxed linen thread in a running stitch pattern using a six ply linen thread.

I will try and remember to take some pictures this weekend of my materials and patterns.

[Al Muckart]

Hi James,