[Amanda B.]

Hello! I just wanted to say first that this is a wonderful site and it was a happy accident to stumble upon it! I have a great interest in medieval history, including military, and I've learned a ton just by reading through the forums.

I'm in the midst of a writing project, and although the setting is fantasy I have been doing a lot of research in the hopes of avoiding a noticeable error that knocks down the believeability of it all. Much of the early story takes place during a chevauchee through enemy territory, though the main characters are in the roles of non-nobles who are hired on as servants to a lower-ranking warrior. Many history books later I'm still having a hard time finding details on the "daily" life of a servant or even man-at-arms in an army on such a march, but that's to be expected...

My actual question is this: one of the characters has a background in what amounts to fencing. Obviously, a fencing sabre won't really hold up in a battle, and I was wondering if there were any actual battle weapons that could take advantage of such a formal style, while being stronger and not as liable to break while pitted against the more usual weapons of war. My instinct is telling me that he'd likely have to start over with a plain longsword, but I thought it would be worth asking first.

Many thanks!
Amanda

[Eric Allen]

I'm not sure I exactly understand what you mean by "formal style," but if you want something a little more --what's the word I'm looking for? swashbuckle-ly? Jaunty? Errol-Flynn-ey? Then, particularly in the Renaissance, there are quite a variety of swords that might fit what you want. Something suitable for military use, yet still--whatever the adjective I'm looking for--might be found in what are sometimes called the "cut-and-thrust" swords (a modern term, and one that some people do not like) or one of of broader-bladed "rapiers." Basically, check out the single-hand swords used by soldiers in the late 15th through the 16th century. And if you pair it with a buckler, well there you go.

[Amanda B.]

[Stephen Hand]

Dear Amanda,

By the way you're using the word fencing I assume you are thinking of something like modern sport fencing. Fencing is a contraction of defencing, or defending yourself. Fencing was originally a military art and we have fencing texts dating back 700 years. They are every bit as subtle as any modern fencing style (considerably more so than some of the sorry "hit before you get hit back" rubbish that passes for fencing these days). Any medieval melee weapon could be used with great skill and subtlety and one would expect the majority of professional soldiers to do so.

Cheers
Stephen

[Amanda B.]

[George Hill]

[Greg Coffman]

I think of fencing as reffering to swordfighting in general, independent of the type of sword. The "show fighters" in the day of Dobringer would likely be using normal one handed swords or longswords. In other words, the weapons that were used by 'show fighters' were often the same weapons used for real combat. So if the setting in your book is more middle ages oriented then the character should not have to learn a weapon different from the one he/she already knows. He or she just has to lean how to use it effectively. Now if the setting in the book is more renaissance oriented, the rapier would perhaps be the weapon that show fighters would use. The rapier is not nearly as well suited towards the battlefield as the broadsword or other weapons.

You seem somewhat committed to the saber. Towards the renaissance the saber was a common and effective weapon from horseback. I would guess that it also might be fast enough for unarmored streetfighting type encounters or 'show fighting' (not that unarmored and show fighting are the same). Another weapon you might consider is the messer. It was a curved, singe-edge sword shorter and broader than a saber. The messer was a very good civillian's tool often carried for self defense yet still suitable for the battlefield. It is just the type of weapon that a non-proffesional soldier would be very familiar with and choose as a weapon of chioce (or at least side arm of choice whereas a spear or pole arm would be the primary weapon) if pressed into battlefield action. Multiple fightbooks depict the messer being used in the German martial art tradition (Talhoffer for example).

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...eister.htm

[Greg Coffman]

Also, I really appreciate your effort as an author to present your book with a certain realism that is uncommon in the genre.

[Lafayette C Curtis]

Well, as some people have mentioned before, "fencing" is quite a broad term. I see from your posts that what you mean by "fencing" is either a theatrical combat style or a thrust-based civilian swordsmanship style. The two are quite different from each other--theatrical combat prioritizes the safety of its participants over combat efficiency, while civilian thrusting styles were still quite viable combat methods in themselves. However, especially from the second half of the 16th century onwards, the civilian styles made a major divergence: where military systems had always been focused on staying alive (i.e. not getting hit), some of the civilian systems began to accept the use of "contretemps" or simultaneous hits since they began to emphasize "honor" over safety. And hitting your enemy was considered more "honorable" than escaping unscathed in the context of a civilian duel.

So, is your character's fighting style based on theatrical fighting or civilian dueling? If it's based on theatrical fighting, he's pretty much dead the first time he steps his foot in the battlefield--there'd be too many things he'll have to unlearn before he can be an effective fighter, and for that he will need a very competent (and patient) tutor. if it's civilian dueling, the first thing he will have to learn is that simultaneous hits are not acceptable in military swordfighting.

BTW, theatrical fighting would have been done with the weapon most prevalent at the time, so it could have been done with broader swords as long as its movements obey the rule of safety. Civilian dueling was a different matter. Early schools like Achille Marozzo's and Antonio Manciolino's used swords that were not markedly different from military swords, only with tighter movements geared more for speed rather than impact. Later on, the thrust gained more emphasis and the weapons became more thrust-oriented, producing the familiar narrow, thick-bladed thrusting sword that usually comes to mind when we talk of "rapiers." Rapiers weren't that fragile, BTW--it's just that they were not as convenient for the more brutal, instinctive chopping movements men often resort to in the stress of a massed battle.

If possible, I'd like to see a clearer picture of the setting--especially what century on Europe or Earth it is roughly based on. I know it's a fantasy world, but you've got to get your inspiration from somewhere, and knowing where you begin is a great help in researching things for fantasy worldbuilding.

I don't know whether it's by accident or by design, but you've certainly come to the right place because I'm a fantasy writer myself--although I also dabble in WMA and practical swordsmanship.

[Lafayette C Curtis]

Well, Greg has made a few good points there--seems like our replies crossed so we repeat somethings between our posts.

The only thing I wish to add is that "saber" is quite a broad term. The military saber based on the Easter European designs was a broad-bladed cutting sword, but in the 18th century there was also a type of military saber that was much thicker and narrower in the blade and more geared for thrusting than cutting. The 19th century produced another type of saber--the dueling saber, an effective cutting weapon in the context of a civilian duel--but it feels a bit too light to be an effective defense on the battlefield. A heavier blade would displace it too easily, and on the other hand it would have a hard time parrying a thrust or deflecting a cut from a heavier blade.

Of course, if you want to restrict your worldbuilding to "medieval" times, you need not concern yourself with the later two. As far as I'm aware, though, in the 15th or 16th century the saber had not yet developed into a civilian dueling weapon.

[Bill Grandy]

[Amanda B.]

I appreciate all the responses! I have a lot ot think about now, heh.

Where the world is concerned, it does seem to be a bit piecemeal as to medieval or renaissance, though I've definitely been studying more along the lines of the Hundred Years War for the actual army parts. The basic setup is an empire of four countries trying to annex/conquer a "heathen" magic-casting kingdom. There isn't 'knight' culture of chivalry, really, and both women and men can equally be soldiers or stay at home parents or whatever suits them. Because the empire's enemies can use magic, they don't take many prisoners for ransom in battle (that is more common in wars among themselves).

The main characters start out in the kingdom, but because they were born in the empire and have a different religion, they are soon displaced and end up with the invading army on their way back to the empire.

The idea of the show-fighting as it is now seems to be closer to the "civilian duel" type as it involves fancy moves but also defeating (though not killing) one's opponent, possibly by first blood. The nobles sometimes bet on fighters and might sponsor one. It's also done somewhat secretly, as the culture doesn't openly approve of this sort of thing.

The fencing sabre I mention because that's what I used as a reference for the design of his sword (here is a picture I drew: http://ic1.deviantart.com/fs10/i/2006/100/9/e...ftgold.jpg ), and what it's being called so far as opposed to rapier or foil, because at least to my mind those bring up the thought of a very thin and flexible blade which doesn't make much sense to even unsheathe in the presence of a medieval-style army! I'm not stuck on the idea of him keeping it, though, especially if there's something more practical he can learn to use as the story goes on; he's a young novice-type who will get more skilled as it goes, and I don't plan to strand him in the midst of a battle with a fencing sword, so there's room to maneuver.

Many thanks for your thoughts on this! I don't know if I could ever write an historical fiction - I'd be too worried about getting the details wrong!

[Roger Hooper]

What kind of armor are these people wearing? Sword choice was often dictated by the type of armor to be breached.

A good choice might be a cut-and-thrust sidesword like the one pictured here - http://www.arms-n-armor.com/rapier212.html -- or here - http://www.christianfletcher.com/Site/Sidesword.html

[Amanda B.]

[Eric Allen]

In my opinion, that sword you drew looks an awful darn much like a classic thrusting rapier (which contrary to modern fencing epees, foils, and such, were actually quite stiff--and relied on this stiffness--because they had to punch deep into a human's body). These style swords tended to be more civilian than military, but that's not to say it would be impossible to use one in a war.

Of course, you COULD kindof sidestep the whole problem by having your character issued a military sword when he joins the army. He might experience a pit steeper of a learning curve, but a sword is a sword, ultimately, and if he's talented enough, it shouldn't slow him down much at all. Swords are all generally built along similar lines, so a swordsman can pick up most any sword and be dangerous with it (maybe not as effective as with the type he's most used to, but still dangerous).
Different designs emphasize particular techniques and strategies, but at the core, the fundamentals are much the same.
You can fight using a typical rapier style with a single-hand "cutting" sword like a type X, or even a bastard sword--it would lkely be a bit awkward, but it can be done. You can use longsword styles with a classic thrusting rapier--again, awkward, and likely not as effective as just using a longsword, but it can be done. This is to be expected, because like I said, at the core, you're still using a sword.
So your character could be handed a more military-style sword as opposed to his normal show-fighting blade and using the same techniques as he is used to, still be able to pull it off.

edit--reading the post you wrote while I was writing this, I gather you're giving him a new sword when he joins up with the arms anyway.

[Richard Fay]

[Amanda B.]

Many thanks for the terms! Though it is a fantasy setting, I would like to use the correct terms whenever possible, or at least where it will make sense with the culture (while trying to avoid terms with an obvious Earthly culture connection, such as French).

Originally it wasn't planned for him to be issued a sword because he starts as a servant, but the scene I'm currently working on (and the one that prompted me to ask this question) is that he's "caught" sparring by the warrior who employs him. So I suppose he could very well be issued a sword then, especially if the show-fighting style is looked down upon by actual warriors, so he can learn to fight "properly".

Ah, wonderful ideas. There's so much more to it than making sure the pointy end goes out and whacking away! (And now I have to try to find an example of a Welsh knifeman's knife, since the archer of the group now has something similar, but that's another issue altogether. )

Good luck on finding an agent! I am nowhere near the point yet, but it's definitely a goal.

[Richard Fay]

[Brad Harada]

Hi Amanda! Might you be thinking about something more along the lines of this?
http://www.deltin.net/5159.htm

It is a sword of a type used in the latter half of the XVth century. Plain, serviceable with an S shaped cross, the lower branch forms an integral knuckle bow, single edged blade with a possible false edge. Swords of this type can also be seen in "The Medieval Soldier" by Embleton and Howe.

[Steve Grisetti]