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Borger Kruge
Location: Norway Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 20
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 Posted: Fri 20 Feb, 2004 2:21 pm Post subject: the timeline of powder |
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Dear all,
One of the happenings that had great impact on the development of bladed weapons was of course the introduction of powder. I'm trying to get a good picture of which types of swords that co-existed with guns, but can't seem to find much info on the timeline of powder. I wonder if anyone could enlighten me on one or more of the questions below:
1) When (approx.) was powder invented (I believe it was in China?)
2) In which time period was powder taken into use in Europe?
3) Was powder used first for cannons only, or did longguns and pistols develop alongside the cannon simultaneously?
4) I remember someone on this forum mention a battle which was regarded to be the last battle where the sword played a significant role. Does anyone know which battle this was, and when it happened?
5) Would anyone know which was the first battle that guns played a significant role?
Any help appreciated, thank you.
Borger
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Geoff Wood
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| Posted: Fri 20 Feb, 2004 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: the timeline of powder |
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| Borger Kruge wrote: | Dear all,
One of the happenings that had great impact on the development of bladed weapons was of course the introduction of powder. I'm trying to get a good picture of which types of swords that co-existed with guns, but can't seem to find much info on the timeline of powder. I wonder if anyone could enlighten me on one or more of the questions below:
1) When (approx.) was powder invented (I believe it was in China?)
2) In which time period was powder taken into use in Europe?
3) Was powder used first for cannons only, or did longguns and pistols develop alongside the cannon simultaneously?
4) I remember someone on this forum mention a battle which was regarded to be the last battle where the sword played a significant role. Does anyone know which battle this was, and when it happened?
5) Would anyone know which was the first battle that guns played a significant role?
Any help appreciated, thank you.
Borger |
1, around 850 AD.
2. probably 13th century, but recorded in warfare in 14th century
3. first used for 'firepots'?, then cannons, then handguns in mid-15th century
4. Don't know, but swords still relevant for infantry in Highland Charges in 18th century, still relevant for cavalry in 19th century and still used in anger by cavalry in 20th century.
5. Don't know.
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Fri 20 Feb, 2004 3:16 pm Post subject: Re: the timeline of powder |
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| Borger Kruge wrote: |
4) I remember someone on this forum mention a battle which was regarded to be the last battle where the sword played a significant role. Does anyone know which battle this was, and when it happened?
Any help appreciated, thank you.
Borger |
This is a little snippet from the book "Scottish Swords from the Battlefield at Culloden", by Lord Archibald Campbell, (Edited & Annotated by E. Andrew Mowbray -1971)
The Battle of Culloden, or Drummossie Moor, was fought upon a heath four miles east of Inverness,Scotland on April 16, 1746. It signalled the effective end of the Stuart claims to the English throne and the crushing of a great nationalistic and religious rebellion. It was also the last battle to be fought on British soil and the last time that an army of Western Europeans employed the sword as a major tactical weapon. It is considered a turning-point in history in spite of the relatively small forces involved.
The Scot was a military anachronism. His tactics continued to center upon swordplay
centuries after its role on the battlefield had been considered secondary or even obsolete by the rest of Europe. Frequently a family heirloom--often in its second or third hilting--the Highlander's sword was far more than just a weapon. The great symbolic value of these arms was not lost upon the Duke of Cumberland. A bounty was paid from the Royal Purse of one shilling for every broadsword picked up from the battlefield.
The Chevalier Johnstone provides what has to be the best description of the 18th century Scot and his behavior upon the field of battle: "They advance with rapidity, discharge their pieces when within musket length of the enemy,and than,throwing them down,draw their swords,and holding a dirk in their left hand with their target(shield)they dart with fury on the enemy through the smoke of their fire. When within reach of the enemy's bayonets, bending their left knee, they, by their attitude cover their bodies with their targets which receive the thrusts of the bayonets,which they contrive to parry,while at the same time they raise their sword arm and strike their adversary.
Having once got...within...the ranks of the enemy...the fate of the battle is decided in an instant, the carnage follows; the Highlanders bringing down two men at a time, one with their dirk in their left hand,and another with the sword."
Once fired, the Scot believed his musket--even when slung--was a hindrance best
flung on the ground for, if victorious, there would be plenty of others to choose from lying about.
Being beaten meant being dead or at best badly wounded--in either case small use for a musket.
Johnstone goes on: "The attack is so terrible, that the best troops in Europe would with difficulty sustain the first shock of it; and if the swords of the Highlanders come in contact with them their defeat is inevitable."
The Highland soldier was in every sense a warrior and, like the Vikings before him,
was noted more for his individual valor than his ability to work in close, disciplined cooperation with his peers. This failing was to cost him the Battle of Culloden.
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
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James Nordstrom
Location: Sacramento, CA Joined: 18 Sep 2003
Posts: 90
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Joe Maccarrone
Location: Burien, WA USA Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 190
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| Posted: Sat 21 Feb, 2004 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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I was just reading yesterday about the 1327 campaign of the young King Edward III into Scotland, during which he was soundly thrashed by Bruce's army. Apparently this campaign marked the first appearance of cannon in northern Britain.
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Justin Gifford
Location: Florida Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Sat 21 Feb, 2004 4:35 pm Post subject: Early gunpowder in China |
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It was invented in China 'round the 9th C., but this wasn't really gunpowder proper, being of relatively low saltpetre composition. The first military uses for this (earliest records dating from the mid-11th C. in China, but some evidence pointing to earlier use) were not as propellants but as incendiary devices, both launched by hand and by engine. As the concoction's function graduated from simply spreading fire to causing forceful explosions, 'round the 13th C., you start to see more of the conventional weapons, including "heaven-shaking thunder" fragmentary bombs and "fire-lances", essentially flamethrowers on sticks. And then of course it hits Europe, and the rest, as they say, is history.
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Joachim Nilsson
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| Posted: Sun 22 Feb, 2004 4:37 am Post subject: Re: the timeline of powder |
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| Geoff Wood wrote: | | Borger Kruge wrote: | Dear all,
One of the happenings that had great impact on the development of bladed weapons was of course the introduction of powder. I'm trying to get a good picture of which types of swords that co-existed with guns, but can't seem to find much info on the timeline of powder. I wonder if anyone could enlighten me on one or more of the questions below:
1) When (approx.) was powder invented (I believe it was in China?)
2) In which time period was powder taken into use in Europe?
3) Was powder used first for cannons only, or did longguns and pistols develop alongside the cannon simultaneously?
4) I remember someone on this forum mention a battle which was regarded to be the last battle where the sword played a significant role. Does anyone know which battle this was, and when it happened?
5) Would anyone know which was the first battle that guns played a significant role?
Any help appreciated, thank you.
Borger |
1, around 850 AD.
2. probably 13th century, but recorded in warfare in 14th century
3. first used for 'firepots'?, then cannons, then handguns in mid-15th century
4. Don't know, but swords still relevant for infantry in Highland Charges in 18th century, still relevant for cavalry in 19th century and still used in anger by cavalry in 20th century.
5. Don't know. |
In his "European Arms and Armour" p. 31 Oakeshott lists the handgun being used as early as the 1370s. He bases this statement on "a list of arms supplied by John Halton, Keeper of the Tower of London, to the Chamberlain of Berwick in 1371" that included the entry:
"iii canonnes parvos vocantus handgonnes"
He further writes:
| Quote: |
and an entry in the Wardrobe Accounts in 1375 lists expenditure for
"helvynge viii gunnorum et x hacettos de stauro antiguo ad modum pycos
That eight guns and ten hatches should be hafted with parts of an old pole in the manner of pikes is significant, for it clearly indicates "handgonnes", not cannon; but Chauser's reference in The House of Fame---
"As swifte as pellet of of gonne
When fyre is through the poudre ronne"
---might refer to either. (The poem was probably written between 1374 and 1382.) |
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Geoff Wood
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| Posted: Sun 22 Feb, 2004 5:18 am Post subject: Re: the timeline of powder |
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[quote="Joachim Nilsson"][quote="Geoff Wood"] | Borger Kruge wrote: |
In his "European Arms and Armour" p. 31 Oakeshott lists the handgun being used as early as the 1370s. He bases this statement on "a list of arms supplied by John Halton, Keeper of the Tower of London, to the Chamberlain of Berwick in 1371" that included the entry:
"iii canonnes parvos vocantus handgonnes"
He further writes:
| Quote: |
and an entry in the Wardrobe Accounts in 1375 lists expenditure for
"helvynge viii gunnorum et x hacettos de stauro antiguo ad modum pycos
That eight guns and ten hatches should be hafted with parts of an old pole in the manner of pikes is significant, for it clearly indicates "handgonnes", not cannon; but Chauser's reference in The House of Fame---
"As swifte as pellet of of gonne
When fyre is through the poudre ronne"
---might refer to either. (The poem was probably written between 1374 and 1382.) |
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Mr Nilsson
Thanks for that. Would the poles have been braced against the ground with this type, to take the recoil on discharge?
Geoff
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Borger Kruge
Location: Norway Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Sun 22 Feb, 2004 6:23 am Post subject: |
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Thank you for your excellent input, I knew I could trust you guys  Great links, James. Great story, Thomas.
It's rather intriguing, really, that guns and swords co-excisted as important weapons of war for (in Europe) more than 400 years.
Borger
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Joachim Nilsson
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| Posted: Mon 23 Feb, 2004 4:17 am Post subject: Re: the timeline of powder |
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[quote="Geoff Wood"][quote="Joachim Nilsson"] | Geoff Wood wrote: | | Borger Kruge wrote: |
In his "European Arms and Armour" p. 31 Oakeshott lists the handgun being used as early as the 1370s. He bases this statement on "a list of arms supplied by John Halton, Keeper of the Tower of London, to the Chamberlain of Berwick in 1371" that included the entry:
"iii canonnes parvos vocantus handgonnes"
He further writes:
| Quote: |
and an entry in the Wardrobe Accounts in 1375 lists expenditure for
"helvynge viii gunnorum et x hacettos de stauro antiguo ad modum pycos
That eight guns and ten hatches should be hafted with parts of an old pole in the manner of pikes is significant, for it clearly indicates "handgonnes", not cannon; but Chauser's reference in The House of Fame---
"As swifte as pellet of of gonne
When fyre is through the poudre ronne"
---might refer to either. (The poem was probably written between 1374 and 1382.) |
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Mr Nilsson
Thanks for that. Would the poles have been braced against the ground with this type, to take the recoil on discharge?
Geoff |
In some cases: probably. I think the "handgonnes" refered to here is very much similar to the replicas featured here: http://www.albion-small-arms.freeserve.co.uk/14th15thcent.htm , and the historical ones featured here: http://xenophongroup.com/montjoie/earguns.htm . The last one I find particulary interesting. Seems to me like a prerunner of the hakenbüsse/hackbutt/arquebus.
This is what Oakeshott writes on the subject (of early handguns):
| Quote: |
The earliest handguns were short tubes, forged in iron or cast in bronze or latten, between about eight inches and eighteen inches long (20cm and 45cm), fastened to "helves" either by having the breech-ends formed as sockets which, like spear-heads, fitted to over the ends of the hafts, or simply being bound to the ends of the helves by iron straps . There are many representations in art of such guns in use; some show the end of the helve resting on the ground while the gunman supports the thing with his right hand and applies the fire to a touch-hole in the breech-end of the tube with his left, while others (generally later) show a helve which is a bit shorter and held under the right armpit. Both kinds of gun are invariably shown pointing upwards at an angle of about 45 degrees to the ground. There could have been little prospect of actually hitting a specific target by such means. |
- Ewart Oakeshott, "European Arms and Armour", p.31.
More good examples of guns such as thsese are shown here http://xenophongroup.com/montjoie/gp_wpns.htm , along with some intriguing medieval artwork also depicting them. There is also a comphrehensive list of dates were various firearms have been used from between 1044 AD to 1494 AD.
The Museum of Medival Stockholm in Stockholm, Sweden have a couple of nice, preserved examples of really eary handguns. Anyone visiting Sweden who might want to have a look at them can find opening hours here: http://www.medeltidsmuseet.stockholm.se/
I find the early firearms and powderweapons and their advent really intriguing.
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Geoff Wood
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| Posted: Mon 23 Feb, 2004 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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Mr Nilsson
Thanks for the additional information. Unfortunately, the first three of your latest links don't seem to be working for me.
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Geoff Wood
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| Posted: Mon 23 Feb, 2004 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: | | Geoff Wood wrote: | Mr Nilsson
Thanks for the additional information. Unfortunately, the first three of your latest links don't seem to be working for me. |
I edited his post to remove the punctuation from the URL's. They work now. |
Thanks to you both.
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Joachim Nilsson
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| Posted: Tue 24 Feb, 2004 2:52 am Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: | | Geoff Wood wrote: | Mr Nilsson
Thanks for the additional information. Unfortunately, the first three of your latest links don't seem to be working for me. |
I edited his post to remove the punctuation from the URL's. They work now. |
Ah, okay. Thanks Nathan.
/Joachim
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Joachim Nilsson
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| Posted: Tue 24 Feb, 2004 2:54 am Post subject: |
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| Geoff Wood wrote: | | Nathan Robinson wrote: | | Geoff Wood wrote: | Mr Nilsson
Thanks for the additional information. Unfortunately, the first three of your latest links don't seem to be working for me. |
I edited his post to remove the punctuation from the URL's. They work now. |
Thanks to you both. |
Well, I'm glad I could be of any help.
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