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Justin Pasternak
Location: West Springfield, Massachusetts Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 174
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 Posted: Sat 18 Nov, 2006 2:03 pm Post subject: Great Two-Handed Swords |
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I was wondering what countries used great two-handed swords? The only Great swords that I know of are the Japanese No-dachi, Scottish Claymore and the German Zweihander. Were there any other types?
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Sat 18 Nov, 2006 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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Hello all!
Justin,
The two-handed sword was used throughout Europe, in various guises at various times. Robert the Bruce was reputed to use one at times. It was unlikely that this sword was like the later two-handed claymore, but a more general two-handed type in use throughout Europe.
Oakeshott takes some time to talk about two-handed swords in his discussion about type XIIIa great swords in The Sword in the Age of Chivalry. Since it's easier for me to just type in an excerpt instead of paraphrasing, here's what he said:
| Ewart Oakeshott wrote: |
The references to "Grete Swerdes" do not, I believe, indicate two-handed swords, for these are always described as such, as "espees a deux mains" (my French is rusty, but this means two-handed sword) or "Twahandswerdes", and need not be confused with the sword of war. The two-hander of the 13th-15th centuries was not, as in the 16th, a specialized form of weapon; it was just an outsize specimen; in the late 13th and the 14th centuries of type XII or XIIIa and in the 15th of Types XV or XVIII.
Froissart, writing of the Canon de Robesart ubder the year 1358, says: "Il tenoit une espee a deux mains, dont il donnoit les horions si grands que nul les osoit attendre" and in the Chronicle of Du Guesclin we read:
"Oliver de Manny le fere tellement
D'une espee a II mains, qui tranchoit roidement:
Sur le col du cheval l'espee si descent
Telllement l'assena que la teste lue fent"
(I don't know enough French to translate this, but I do note "une espee a II mains" is "two-handed sword" again, this time "II" is the roman numeral for two.)
An earlier example of the use of a two-hander is found in a Romance of Alexander of c. 1180: "Il trait le bone espee a II espieus molus" and a later reference is in the will of Sir John Deepene (1402): "Unum gladium ornatum cum argento et j. twahandswerde". |
(obviously, my comments are in the parentheses.)
So, the two-handed sword was certainly found in several European nations throughout the Middle Ages, although it was never very common.
I hope this helped!
If you like, I might be able to find a bit more about the two-handed sword.
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Sat 18 Nov, 2006 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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Hello again!
I found more information about the two-handed sword in George Cameron Stone's glossary. The work is a bit dated, so some of the author's comments should be taken with a grain of salt, but the book covers many parts of the world not usually covered in other books. Here's what it said:
| George Cameron Stone wrote: |
Two Handed Sword Any sword heavy enough to require the use of both hands. It was long a favorite weapon in many parts of Europe. The Swiss used it almost exclusively until the later part of the 15th century. In 1499 it was decided "to suppress completely the two-handed swords and, instead, to arm the pikemen and halberdiers with a sword or axe". It was, however, retained by the Swiss Papal Guard until the middle of the 19th century, if not later.
The Japanese katana, or fighting sword, was frequently used with both hands; and the Japanese also had very large two-handed swords. See O-Dachi. The Chinese also used two-handed swords but mainly for executions. Like all Chinese weapons they are clumsy with broad falchion blades and, usually, long, straight iron handles terminating in a ring. The handles are generally wound with cord. Another type is also used; it is carried in a scabbard and the hilt and scabbard mounts are in the namban style.
In India among the Rajputs and Mahrattas two-handed swords were sometimes used. They had rather short blades and very long hilts decorated with three fluted brass balls, the guards were very small with very short quillons curving sharply towards the blade. These hilts are frequently hollow and serve as sheaths for small knives. In the south a different type was used. It had two plate guards.
The Nagas of Assam used two quite forms of two-handed swords. The commoner has a single edged blade, straight and about thirty inches long, and a long iron hilt with two cross guards, one about eight inches from the pommel and the other about eighteen. The upper is longer. The other form is much shorter and has but one guard. The blade has a sharp reverse curve close to the hilt which throws it about three inches out of line with the latter but parallel to it. |
Some of the examples from Asian nations seem to have shorter blades than the European examples; they are two-handed swords because of the extremely long hilts.
I think this gives you a good idea of what sorts of two-handed swords were in use in various places and periods.
I hope you found this interesting!
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Justin Pasternak
Location: West Springfield, Massachusetts Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 174
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| Posted: Sat 18 Nov, 2006 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for your help richard! I now know a little bit more on great swords.
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Hugo Voisine
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| Posted: Sat 18 Nov, 2006 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | The references to "Grete Swerdes" do not, I believe, indicate two-handed swords, for these are always described as such, as "espees a deux mains" (my French is rusty, but this means two-handed sword) or "Twahandswerdes", and need not be confused with the sword of war. The two-hander of the 13th-15th centuries was not, as in the 16th, a specialized form of weapon; it was just an outsize specimen; in the late 13th and the 14th centuries of type XII or XIIIa and in the 15th of Types XV or XVIII.
Froissart, writing of the Canon de Robesart ubder the year 1358, says: "Il tenoit une espee a deux mains, dont il donnoit les horions si grands que nul les osoit attendre" and in the Chronicle of Du Guesclin we read:
"Oliver de Manny le fere tellement
D'une espee a II mains, qui tranchoit roidement:
Sur le col du cheval l'espee si descent
Telllement l'assena que la teste lue fent"
(I don't know enough French to translate this, but I do note "une espee a II mains" is "two-handed sword" again, this time "II" is the roman numeral for two.)
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You are right. "Espees a deux mains" (in modern french, "Épée à deux mains") means two-handed sword.
My english is bad, but this text means approximately :
"Oliver (Olivier ?) de Manny did so,
With a two-handed sword, that cut like a Gus Trim :
On the neck of the horse he swung the sword,
So hardly he hit that he split its head"
It's old french so I may not get it exactly right but I think I got the essence of the message...
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Sat 18 Nov, 2006 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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Hello all!
Hugo,
Cut like a Gus Trim, eh?  
That was cute!
I'm assuming it meant something like "cut wonderfully", "remarkably", "amazingly" or something like that.
I wonder if that head was inside a helmet?
Sorry for not using the proper accent marks; I'm not sure how to do that. You got the idea anyway.
Justin,
I might have more information for you in a bit. If I ever get around to it, there is a sword in Records of the Medieval Sword that Oakeshott said was close to being a two-hander. It could have qualified as a medieval two-handed sword, one of those that's just an oversized example of the standard types (in this case a type XIIIa). I'll try to get a picture of that one posted. As a matter of fact, there might be a couple later two-handers as well. I'll have to take a look.
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Sat 18 Nov, 2006 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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Hello again!
I've scanned in a few two-handed swords, or great swords of almost two-handed proportions, from Records of the Medieval Sword.
Type XX. 2 is a two-handed sword of circa 1440-50. It has a blade length of 42 1/8 inches, and a grip 15 inches long.
Type XVIIIa. 8 is a very large bastard sword, with a grip of two-handed length, of circa 1480-1510.
Type XIIIa. 2 is a big great sword of circa 1300-50. Oakeshott stated that this sword is "enormous", and is nearly of two-handed proportions. It may have been considered a two-handed sword in the medieval period (a lot of the appellation depends on usage - a great sword used in two hands could be called a two-handed sword, but two-handers are usually considered to be especially large examples). This particular example was found in the River Thames opposite the Temple.
Number 6 (from "Multiple Miscellaneous") is another Type XIIIa great sword that is almost a two-handed sword because of it's especially long grip. It's blade may be a bit short for a true two-hander, at 35 inches. Oakeshott stated that this sword is just under 4 pounds, which he implied was heavy for a war sword with a blade of that length (relatively speaking, of course, as compared to similar period examples - I don't really want to get into another debate regarding weight - I know other factors are involved). It does have an impressively broad blade.
Type XVIIIa. 5 could be considered a two-handed sword, and an elegant-looking example of a long sword (at least in my opinion - and Oakeshott's, too). Oakeshott dated this one circa 1450-80.
I hope this was interesting! (And doesn't stir up too much controversy - that's not my intention! Keep in mind all my comments regarding weight and similar issues are not my own; I'm just repeating what Oakeshott wrote for the benefit of those that have not read his works. It is all subjective.)
(Obviously, the photos are not to scale.)
Stay safe!
 Attachment: 28.79 KB
Two-handed swords and great swords from Records of the Medieval Sword
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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