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Bryce Felperin
Location: San Jose, CA Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 552
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 Posted: Wed 15 Nov, 2006 11:17 am Post subject: Nanotube Scimatars |
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I got this from another site (free to browse for this article). Thought you all might find it interesting.
Secret's out for Saracen sabres
* 15 November 2006
* NewScientist.com news service
DURING the middle ages, the Muslims who fought crusaders with swords of Damascus steel had an edge - a very high-tech one. Their sabres contained carbon nanotubes.
From about AD 900 to AD 1750, Damascus sabres were forged from Indian steel called wootz. Peter Paufler of the Technical University of Dresden, Germany, and colleagues studied samples of a 17th-century sword under an electron microscope and found clear evidence of carbon nanotubes and even nanowires.
The researchers think that the sophisticated process of forging and annealing the steel formed the nanotubes and the nanowires, and could explain the amazing mechanical properties of the swords (Nature, vol 444, p 286).
From issue 2578 of New Scientist magazine, 15 November 2006, page 20
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Wed 15 Nov, 2006 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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Whenever a carbon source is heated you get nanotubes and "buckyballs". Some of these would have permeated wootz just as they do all forms of crucible steel. I'm betting that nanotubes would be found in wrought iron also. Wootz doesn't have any special mechanical properties that other crucible steels don't have. The main advantage of wootz is the formation of carbides along the edge of a blade, which create micro-serrations. These serrations make the blade more effective at cutting flesh. Nanotubes are a red herring I'm afraid.
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Bryce Felperin
Location: San Jose, CA Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 552
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| Posted: Wed 15 Nov, 2006 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | | Whenever a carbon source is heated you get nanotubes and "buckyballs". Some of these would have permeated wootz just as they do all forms of crucible steel. I'm betting that nanotubes would be found in wrought iron also. Wootz doesn't have any special mechanical properties that other crucible steels don't have. The main advantage of wootz is the formation of carbides along the edge of a blade, which create micro-serrations. These serrations make the blade more effective at cutting flesh. Nanotubes are a red herring I'm afraid. |
Thanks Dan, good to know. I guess that explains why those blades were so prized after all. :-)
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John Oliver
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| Posted: Fri 17 Nov, 2006 4:21 am Post subject: |
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Interesting discussion guys...
I would have thought the ability to cut flesh effectively would have been more related to how well the blade was tempered, the quality and chemical composition of the steel, edge geometry, balance, handling characteristics of the sword itself, individual ability of the swordsman and appropriateness of the technique used etc....?
I wonder if anyone HAS ever performed direct comparisons - doing test cutting with high end mono-steel European swords of the type carried by our crusader ancestors and the wootz/damascus steel bladed 'scimitars' (shamshir/kilij type swords) carried by the saracens?
I would have thought the saracen scimitars would have been fast/light/manoeuverable like a katana but not be as powerful cutters as the knightly swords of the time... (?) Whilst I think a lot of people tend to attribute almost magical properties to the damascus steel sword and the katana my take on it is that this is 99% myth and 1% substance...:-) (A bit like the stories they told the marines during WWII about the jap swords being able to cut through machine gun barrels and so on - I challenge *anyone* to cut through *any* machine gun barrel with *any* japanese katana:-)))))
Anyway - it really *does* get me wondering - there *must* be someone out there who *has* done some comparative cutting tests/experiments...? For my money, I'd be betting on the good ole Mediaeval knightly sword myself though - a powerful weapon capable of inflicting the most horrific injuries on an enemy... (especially in the hands of a highly trained knight).
My 2 pennies:-)
John.
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Kjell Magnusson
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| Posted: Fri 17 Nov, 2006 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| John Oliver wrote: |
I would have thought the ability to cut flesh effectively would have been more related to how well the blade was tempered, the quality and chemical composition of the steel...
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Well, one thing I have been thinking about is if the carbide formation in wootz steel may perhaps help keep the carbon levels in the base material at a suitable level for the heat treatment to work well. Too little carbon and the steel can become too soft after hardening, too much and one can get problems with retained austenite. However, at least in the case of normal iron carbide (cementite, Fe3C) in "base" steel (no alloying worth mentioning beyond the carbon), one can use the carbides as a "carbon sink", leaving the base metal with a somewhat suitable amount of carbon for the hardening to work nicely. Perhaps the large amount of carbides in wootz helped the smiths achieve such more easily? The exact alloying can also fine tune the amount of carbon left in the base metal, the average wootz steel may perhaps have come rather close to a sweet spot here? The end result in any case being that the swordsmiths could get a good and more consistent heat treatment out of it.
As a minor disclaimer though, this would be some random thoughts based upon very theoretical knowledge.
By the way, does anyone have at hand any throughout study comparing the mechanical properties of these blades with other swords from the same time? (Or even comparing modern made approximations of the steels used, as one might not wish to subject the real thing to destructive testing.) I have found some articles investigating how to make wootz, but so far I haven't seen any further investigation of the end product, beyond verifying that it was indeed wootz.
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Shawn Shaw
Location: Boston, MA USA Joined: 07 Jan 2006
Posts: 115
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| Posted: Fri 17 Nov, 2006 7:12 am Post subject: |
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For what it's worth (admittedly, very little) I recall reading, when I was younger, about a supposed contest between Richard and Saladin. Supposedly, Richard wanted to show off and so he whipped out his sword and split a nearby anvil in two. Saladin smiled, pulled out his own sword and then split a single hair from his beard along the edge.
Now, I'm sure that story is complete fantasy but it does illustrate the popular conception of saracen vs. crusader weaponry. The crusaders are viewed as powerful but relatively slow and clumsy. The saracens are viewed as fast and graceful but unsuited to withstanding the raw power of the medieval knights.
There was also supposedly a difference in the maille used by both armies. From what I hear, saracen maille was much lighter and of better quality steel than the crusaders' armour.
Again, sorry folks...no sources, just some dimly recalled anecdotal stuff.
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George Hill
Location: Atlanta Ga Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 614
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| Posted: Fri 17 Nov, 2006 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| Shawn Shaw wrote: | For what it's worth (admittedly, very little) I recall reading, when I was younger, about a supposed contest between Richard and Saladin. Supposedly, Richard wanted to show off and so he whipped out his sword and split a nearby anvil in two. Saladin smiled, pulled out his own sword and then split a single hair from his beard along the edge.
Now, I'm sure that story is complete fantasy but it does illustrate the popular conception of saracen vs. crusader weaponry. The crusaders are viewed as powerful but relatively slow and clumsy. The saracens are viewed as fast and graceful but unsuited to withstanding the raw power of the medieval knights.
There was also supposedly a difference in the maille used by both armies. From what I hear, saracen maille was much lighter and of better quality steel than the crusaders' armour.
Again, sorry folks...no sources, just some dimly recalled anecdotal stuff. |
Shawn, you are right the story isn't true. IT has about five variations though. Sometimes it's a helmet vs a scarf, and it generally doesn't take any reality into account, espeically the fact those two never met face to face.
And most evidence seems to suggest that crusader mail was the better armor on the field.
To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Thomas Watt
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| Posted: Fri 17 Nov, 2006 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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I'm glad someone posted this up... I ran across the article this morning and had planned to post it (I'm blocked to this site from work, have to wait 'til I get home)... I also ran down some of the links in the article to a fairly dense thesis-paper by some chem-engineering folks. I was curious about what the reaction to this article would be...
one of the things mentioned was a historical source in India for "saracen" swords that featured the use if Indian iron ore, and the paper argued that the composition of that iron (or its impurities) promoted the formation of cementite(sp?) and carbon nano-tubes.
I can dig for the references if anyone's interested (the links are on a different drive and will require sneaker net).
I'm completely non-technical along these lines, and Islamic and Indian history were not amongst my specialities.
Any thoughts from those that know?
Have 11 swords, 2 dirks, half a dozen tomahawks and 2 Jeeps - seem to be a magnet for more of all.
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Jared Smith
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| Posted: Fri 17 Nov, 2006 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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The amazing mechanical properties attributed to the legends of damascus swords are so far mythical (not seen in museum pieces surviving.) The wootz and pattern damascus methods produced cementite and hard carbon particles (precipitation based.) This is actually not the same as a continuous structure (at the nano scale) running throughout the entire sword. Mechanical properties when measured have not been as good as modern homogenous steel, but are amazingly good considering the material and method limitations those craftsmenn faced. The hard particles found at the edges of the blade do give it a micro serrated cutting edge effect. My damascus knife is a favorite in terms of how well it cuts things like thick leather.
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9809/Verhoeven-9809.html
An example of a sword with an actual continuous fiber matrix would be a significant discovery!
Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Edward Hitchens
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| Posted: Sun 04 Mar, 2007 9:34 am Post subject: |
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A segment of an article published in the latest issue of Renaissance Magazine (issue #53) titled "Secrets of Saracen Sabers Revealed:"
"The scientists (at Dresden) also think that the presence of carbon nanotubes, which are resistant to acid, protected the nanowires during the final acid wash, causing them to stick out from the edge of the blades like tiny teeth. This could account for both the sowrds' sharpness and the characteristic dark banding patterns in the steel."
This article also boasts of Damascus blades being able to "cleave through stone or another sword and still retain an edge sharp enough to cut a piece of silk in half as it fell to the ground. They were also known to have been forged by Muslim bladesmiths, who used exceptionally strong ore from India called wootz, and then etched the blades with acid to bring out the characteristic wavy patterns in the blade. But the process for making wootz was lost around 1700."
I apologize if this bit of info was already discussed; I just received this issue in the mail a couple days ago and read the article. Therefore, it's the first I'm learning of it.  -Ted
"The whole art of government consists in the art of being honest." Thomas Jefferson
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Sun 04 Mar, 2007 10:04 am Post subject: |
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Personally I am quite certain that the main reaso for the popularity of Wootz is that it looks incredibly cool.
Also, being a imported luxury material, wootz swords would be made by skilled weaponsmiths. Thus, you would be hard pressed to find a wootz sword that wasn't a above average weapon.
When the cutting abilities of the blade comes into play, the battle is already won; It's getting to that point which matters.
Victory or defeat is not determined by the degree of sharpness of one's swords, but how one handles it.
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Sun 04 Mar, 2007 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Elling Polden wrote: | Personally I am quite certain that the main reaso for the popularity of Wootz is that it looks incredibly cool.
Also, being a imported luxury material, wootz swords would be made by skilled weaponsmiths. Thus, you would be hard pressed to find a wootz sword that wasn't a above average weapon.
When the cutting abilities of the blade comes into play, the battle is already won; It's getting to that point which matters.
Victory or defeat is not determined by the degree of sharpness of one's swords, but how one handles it. |
I couldn't disagree more.
We know from all the tests (admittedly far too few to date) which have been done so far that the crucible steel from India was superior in terms of consistency and hardness to many (though not all) of the contemporary European blades which have been tested.
Also, I beg to differ, if you are 'cut' with a dull blade, you are very likely to survive to countercut and kill your opponent. If you are fighting and your blade breaks or bends you are similarly up the proverbial creek. The reason people went from stone to primtivie copper alloys to bronze to iron to steely iron to high carbon steel, was that each of these materials had superior qualities to the previous. Superior in holding an edge and cutting well; or superior in flexibility and resilliance... the ability to strike helmets and shield bosses and other weapons without breaking or bending. These are both extremely important.
On a personal level, I have seen the vast differences between poorly made weapons with lousy steel, and well made weapons with relatively good steel. I've seen sword replicas which are hard pressed to cleanly cut a water jug or a pool noodle, weapons with edges which are routinely damaged by carboard tubes; and I've seen others which can slice all the way through a turkey or a phone book, or a two by four pine stud with one stroke. I've seen weapons which can't hold an edge through twenty minutes of cutting exorcises, and those which maintain a good edge after dozens of cutting days. I know a dull blade can cause horrible injuries, but human beings can be extraordinarily resiliant. If my life was depending on killing my enemy with a blade, I would damn sure want the sharpest, hardest, most flexibile and resilliant steel I could get my hands on - I don't want to merely cause an ugly wound, I want to sever limbs, heads, pierce rib cages and skulls.
I don't for a second believe that wootz steel blades could cut through stone or gun barrels, but I do believe that crucible steels combined qualities of hardness with a high degree of flexibility, the features of low carbon springy steel and higher carbon hard (but normally brittle steel)
Thats why wootz steel was popular, it made weapons which could do this and which where less likely to break.
J
P.S. Is there any evidence of wootz steel being more resistant to rust? I know there is considerable debate about the famous pillar in New Delhi, I can't even determine if it is actually wootz steel or just iron....
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Edward Hitchens
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| Posted: Sun 04 Mar, 2007 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Henri Chandler wrote: | I don't for a second believe that wootz steel blades could cut through stone or gun barrels, but I do believe that crucible steels combined qualities of hardness with a high degree of flexibility, the features of low carbon springy steel and higher carbon hard (but normally brittle steel)
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I agree. The carbon content certainly makes a difference in the quality of the blade, or how sharp of an edge that can be applied. Of course, I doubt that even the sharpest blades could cut stone (yea for sledgehammers!).
A higher the carbon content, the sharper -- and more brittle -- the edge can be. Same goes for the point. If I'm fighting an opponent dressed in plate armor and swords are our only weapons, perhaps a blade with a somewhat lower carbon content would be preferable, particularly around the tip. The specific reason is that I would employ the tip (more than the edge) to penetrate weak spots in the armor (i.e. the joints or under the arm). Since my tip would initially be piercing at the steel armor or maille before penetrating the human body under it, I'd require that it be made less brittle so it can better withstand striking steel and parrying my opponent's incoming strikes.
Just my two cents worth.  -Ted
"The whole art of government consists in the art of being honest." Thomas Jefferson
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Vincent Le Chevalier
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| Posted: Sun 04 Mar, 2007 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Henri Chandler wrote: |
On a personal level, I have seen the vast differences between poorly made weapons with lousy steel, and well made weapons with relatively good steel.
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In my opinion Elling made a good point when he said that swords made of wootz were probably made by the most skilled smiths given the scarcity of the material. That is, the relevant comparison would be a poorly made weapon with superior steel vs. a well made weapon with poor steel. Given such a difficult choice I would probably value more the skill of the maker than the quality of the steel.
I tend to believe that sharpness and hardness of the edge, and resiliency of the blade, can only be combined up to degree. So the different methods are only different ways to get closer to this best compromise. I'd say that probably pattern-welding, differential quenching, and wootz are three methods that gave very good blades, with very close overall properties. Forging with a more uniform steel and tempering gives a blade that performs a bit less, but at a fraction of the cost...
My personal take on that relative hype around wootz is that it was caused by:
a) scarcity of the material
b) secret around the method
c) quality of craftmanship (caused by a and b)
d) inner quality of the blade (a result of d, mainly)
in that order.
Regards
--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Sun 04 Mar, 2007 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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I would like to make one little point generally. The learned folks on this board (and I mean this seriously, I think the knowlege base here is outstanding, as is the 'signal to noise ratio) are well aware of the phenomenon of folks over-hyping the wisdom of the ancients; the whole mythology of the katanna which can cut cars in half is a prime example of this.
But we should also keep in mind that there is this other extreme, to discount the abilities of the ancients. Thats why celtic, german, and scandinavian "barbarians" are regularly portrayed as cavemen in films and even quite sober documentaries to this day. It's why people come up with all these theories about how UFO's must have made the pyramids or stonehenge because, surely, the ancients couldn't have had such advanced knowlege of astronomy to line up solar eclipses and stellar convergences on the Winter solstace and the like.
The ancients weren't magical wizards with secret knowlege, nor were they ignorant cavemen. They may not have had antibiotics or toilet paper but they were very crafty, pragmatic and resourceful. We should just keep that in mind.
Edit: (To be more clear about it.... ) so it's not utterly inconceievable to me that people even 1500 years ago may have known a few things about smelting and tempering steel than we know today, even with all our vast technological sophistication.
Incidentally, this is the pillar in India i was referring to in case anybody didn't know about it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_pillar
Jean
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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