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Adam Simmonds




Location: Henley On Thames
Joined: 10 Jun 2006

Posts: 169

PostPosted: Tue 07 Nov, 2006 10:20 pm    Post subject: hatchet use historically?         Reply with quote

walking round the garden the other day eye spied my trusty little hatchet on the wood pile.
anyone know of historical use of the hatchet as a weapon?
i know it was a popular weapon in colonial times throughout the world - as, like the machete, it doubles as a multipurpose tool and a weapon.
i'm wondering if it saw use earlier then this - was the hatchet ever considered a fighting man's companion during rennaissance times or earlier? are there extant sources for its use? was it ever used systematically as a throwing weapon (outside of hollywood)?

cheers, adam
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Nick Trueman





Joined: 27 Mar 2006

Posts: 246

PostPosted: Tue 07 Nov, 2006 10:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi

The francissca could be thrown, small axes were known through the viking age.



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Nick Trueman





Joined: 27 Mar 2006

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PostPosted: Tue 07 Nov, 2006 11:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Another couple of quikies, viking age axes from russia


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Adam Simmonds




Location: Henley On Thames
Joined: 10 Jun 2006

Posts: 169

PostPosted: Tue 07 Nov, 2006 11:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

thanks for the info and pics Nick,

i figured there must have been historical use of small axes/ hatchets as it seems such an obvious and practical little weapon. that diagram of the flight path of franssisca's is pretty neat. Where these specifically throwing axes? and if so - do they differ substantially from regular axes in terms of weight displacement etc.? in the diagram it looked like they had unusual handles. i can read german so if you've got anymore stuff in german or english i'd be very interested. i guess when throwing an axe one has to gauge the distance and corresponding number of rotations in order to hit the target blade first, just like when throwing a knife - no doubt skills recquiring alot of practise before they come almost instinctively.

cheers, adam
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Nick Trueman





Joined: 27 Mar 2006

Posts: 246

PostPosted: Wed 08 Nov, 2006 12:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Adam Simmonds wrote:
thanks for the info and pics Nick,

i figured there must have been historical use of small axes/ hatchets as it seems such an obvious and practical little weapon. that diagram of the flight path of franssisca's is pretty neat. Where these specifically throwing axes? and if so - do they differ substantially from regular axes in terms of weight displacement etc.? in the diagram it looked like they had unusual handles. i can read german so if you've got anymore stuff in german or english i'd be very interested. i guess when throwing an axe one has to gauge the distance and corresponding number of rotations in order to hit the target blade first, just like when throwing a knife - no doubt skills recquiring alot of practise before they come almost instinctively.

cheers, adam


Hi

I really dont know to much about them, I would say they were designed with throwing in mind but also could be used as a normal axe.

Cheers



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Nick Trueman





Joined: 27 Mar 2006

Posts: 246

PostPosted: Wed 08 Nov, 2006 12:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Im glad you can read german! Hope these other pics are a help


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Adam Simmonds




Location: Henley On Thames
Joined: 10 Jun 2006

Posts: 169

PostPosted: Wed 08 Nov, 2006 12:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

thanks Nick -

some interesting pics, love those curves!

adam
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George Hill




Location: Atlanta Ga
Joined: 16 May 2005

Posts: 614

PostPosted: Wed 08 Nov, 2006 3:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Where does the hatchet end, and where does the 'horseman's axe' begin?
To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Nick Trueman





Joined: 27 Mar 2006

Posts: 246

PostPosted: Wed 08 Nov, 2006 3:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi

Thats hard to say, I would have to say that some steppe examples would have to be the earliest type wich without a doubt were made for cavalry. Ive also noticed that cavalry axes or czekans have long handles for obvious reasons. I have a great book called 'Europe around the yr 10 hundred' wich has examples of hatchets/axes with original handles still intact. One speciman has quite long handle maybe denoting cavalry use?
For the early viking and migration period I would have to say the steppe peoples used cavalry axes on a regular basis. For the bronze age and very early iron age you might have to ask someone else as my studies havent lead that way.

Cheers

N



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Elling Polden




Location: Bergen, Norway
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PostPosted: Wed 08 Nov, 2006 7:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The hatchet, as in the short, light axe, would, as far as I know, not be used as a primary weapon. It was however used as a sidearm by soldiers and sailors in the blackpowder age.
In a stand up fight with a opponent armed for melee, the hatchet would be to short to be a effective choice;To take out someone, you would need to get real up close and personal.


Norwegians carried axes longer than most; The battleaxe was a status symbol for wealthy farmers until the 18th century; The laws demanded that every soldier in the levies should own a axe until the 1700s.
These axes where commonly about 1 meter long, with recurved heads, like this one
http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/displayimage....amp;pos=87

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Wed 08 Nov, 2006 8:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To the Ancient Egyptians the small axe seems to have been with the spear and a short dagger fairly basic equipment.

The Sumerian, Babylonians, Assyrians, Syrian etc ... seemed to also make use of various small hand axes of moderate length of handle and axe head types: From large crescent shapes to very long narrow kind meant for piercing bronze helmets. ( Well, with long narrow heads that's what they look they are meant for !? Very pick axe like ! )

As far as throwing is concerned this might vary by type and by culture ? Also if your small axe is your primary weapon one might only throw it if absolutely necessary.

With the Franks the axe was very much a projectile weapon and maybe more than one might have been carried ?

Lot of " mights " here as I don't have primary sources at my finger tips but these are my general impressions.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!


Last edited by Jean Thibodeau on Wed 08 Nov, 2006 8:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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David Evans




Location: Rotherham, West Riding
Joined: 09 Sep 2004

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PostPosted: Wed 08 Nov, 2006 8:27 am    Post subject: Hatchets in use         Reply with quote

George Monck 'Observations upon Military and Political Affairs2 written in 1644 but only published in 1671 suggested strongly that soldiers shouldn't be issued with swords, just hatchets. On the grounds that the most likely use of them was cutting firewood!
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James Barker




Location: Ashburn VA
Joined: 20 Apr 2005

Posts: 365

PostPosted: Wed 08 Nov, 2006 10:33 am    Post subject: Re: Hatchets in use         Reply with quote

David Evans wrote:
George Monck 'Observations upon Military and Political Affairs2 written in 1644 but only published in 1671 suggested strongly that soldiers shouldn't be issued with swords, just hatchets. On the grounds that the most likely use of them was cutting firewood!


I love that reference.

At Agincourt the archers attacked the French with axes they had for making the stakes they planted in the ground.
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