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Martin Wilkinson
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 Posted: Wed 01 Nov, 2006 2:38 pm Post subject: Is this really this late? |
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Is this sword really this late.
It looks like a Mortuary Sword to me...
http://www.cullodenantiques.com/english_officers_back_sword.html
I may be severely mistaken but that what it appears to be to me.
"A bullet you see may go anywhere, but steel's, almost bound to go somewhere."
Schola Gladiatoria
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Geoff Wood
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| Posted: Wed 01 Nov, 2006 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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If you're mistaken, I'm probably more so, but don't mortuary swords usually have additional bars going back to the pommel on both sides of the grip?
Regards
Geoff
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Don Stanko
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| Posted: Wed 01 Nov, 2006 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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No, I believe the date on the sword is correct. I've seen this type before.
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Jonathan Hopkins
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| Posted: Wed 01 Nov, 2006 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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The dates given for the sword are correct. The hilt is quite striking, and is included in Cyril Mazansky's typology of British basket hilted swords. He would classify it as a Type IV incomplete basket hilt, which is characterized by a heart-shaped stool. The pommel is of type XVA, which is egg-shaped and tapers to the pommel. The first three photos show a similar sword in my collection (the one in my avatar, which has a colichemarde blade of triangular cross section). The fourth photo shows the sword the dealer has referenced.
If you are interested in similar swords (including traditional English and Scottish basket hilts, mortuary swords, etc.), I highly recommend purchasing a copy of Neumann' Swords and Blades of the American Revolution (its scope is greater than just the 1770s and 1780s) and a copy of Mazansky's British Basket-Hilted Swords.
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Jonathan Hopkins
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| Posted: Wed 01 Nov, 2006 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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BTW--I am sure William (Bill) Goodwin would be happy to clarify what makes a mortuary a mortuary! For now, here is what myArmoury has in the Albums section: Mortuary Hilts. It appears that one distinguishing characteristic is that the mortuary tends to have at least two and often three knuckle guards: the main knuckle guard, and one or two side knuckle guards, which attach to the pommel. The example that inspired this thread has only one knuckle guard--the main knuckle guard--that has branching bars that attach only to the stool (the heart shaped guard), not the pommel.
Also, browsing this section of the National Maritime Museum might turn up some similar examples to the sword that started this thread.
Best,
Jonathan
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William Goodwin
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| Posted: Thu 02 Nov, 2006 4:00 am Post subject: |
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Martin,
Jonathan H. is spot-on with his assestment. Given the correct time period, it's is a 18th miltiary hanger (English probably)
of sorts. " Mortuary" or English half-baskets were only made a short time between 1635 & 1670.
Nice looking sword there.
Cheers,
Bill
Roanoke Sword Guilde
roanokeswordguilde@live.com
"I was born for this" - Joan of Arc
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Martin Wilkinson
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| Posted: Thu 02 Nov, 2006 5:52 am Post subject: |
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| J.G. Hopkins wrote: | | Mazansky's British Basket-Hilted Swords. |
Is that a Royal Armouries book?
If so there was a copy of it at the market last weekend, i didn't even look at it, i'd already picked up several expensive books....
"A bullet you see may go anywhere, but steel's, almost bound to go somewhere."
Schola Gladiatoria
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Jonathan Hopkins
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| Posted: Thu 02 Nov, 2006 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| Martin Wilkinson wrote: | | J.G. Hopkins wrote: | | Mazansky's British Basket-Hilted Swords. |
Is that a Royal Armouries book?
If so there was a copy of it at the market last weekend, i didn't even look at it, i'd already picked up several expensive books.... |
Yes, it is. It covers the span of basket hilted sword development in England and Scotland and includes what Mazansky calls "incomplete basket hilts", mortuary hilts, and "hilts based on pierced side rings" (which kind of blur the line between mortuary hilts and walloon hilts). It is a book worth saving for! The Neumann book is substantially less expensive, and fortunately is still in print. This book covers American and European swords (meaning mainly England, Scotland, France, and Germany) from c.1600 to c.1800.
Jonathan
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William Goodwin
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| Posted: Thu 02 Nov, 2006 6:22 am Post subject: |
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Martin,
shop around on E-bay for the Mazansky book....can sometimes pick-it up at a good price.....definitely a must have
for anyone interested in basket-hilts.
Cheers,
Bill
Roanoke Sword Guilde
roanokeswordguilde@live.com
"I was born for this" - Joan of Arc
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Michael Mercier
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| Posted: Thu 02 Nov, 2006 9:57 am Post subject: |
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Call me crazy, but don't the prices on some of the items to the Culloden House link you provided look aweful high?
Mike
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Martin Wilkinson
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| Posted: Thu 02 Nov, 2006 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Mercier wrote: | Call me crazy, but don't the prices on some of the items to the Culloden House link you provided look aweful high?
Mike |
I'm no expert in that field. But i'd say they're a little high yeah.
However, i found a link to that site, and decided to see if there was anything pretty...
And there was.
This piece just seemed to be a Mortuary to me, but i now know that it isn't...
"A bullet you see may go anywhere, but steel's, almost bound to go somewhere."
Schola Gladiatoria
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Jonathan Hopkins
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| Posted: Fri 03 Nov, 2006 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Martin Wilkinson wrote: | | This piece just seemed to be a Mortuary to me, but i now know that it isn't... |
I can see how one might make that mistake--one that may not be uncommon. For example, the dealer who sold me the sword I posted earlier in this thread (the one in my avatar) thought it was from the 1680s, because to him it resembled English swords of the mid 1600s. Luckily he was not asking the prices commanded by such weapons!
Going back to the Mazansky book, I got a great deal on Amazon--originally $90 USD, I got it on sale for $60 USD. Arms and Armour of the English Civil Wars by David Blackmore is a nice little book, also published by the Royal Armouries. It is much broader in its scope, and will not give you the same depth as the Mazansky title, but I highly recommend it if you have any interest in swords, etc. of the English Civil War period.
Jonathan
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This is a standard topic