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Tim Harris
Industry Professional
Location: Melbourne, Australia Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 168
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 Posted: Thu 19 Oct, 2006 10:00 pm Post subject: Distal specs |
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Apologies in advance if this is in the wrong place.
Would anyone be able to tell me the distal taper on the Albion Squire 15th Century bastard sword?
Thanks.
Tim Harris
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Greyson Brown
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| Posted: Fri 20 Oct, 2006 8:37 am Post subject: |
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The Hands on Review of that sword does not specifically mention distal taper, but I am sure that is is in keeping with other swords of the type. The Squire Line swords are not designed with a sharp edge, but they still follow the same principles of sword construction such as distal taper, profile taper, hilt assembly, etc. I can tell you that my SL Knightly sword starts out 5mm thick at the guard and tapers to 2mm at the end.
-Grey
"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company
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Tim Harris
Industry Professional
Location: Melbourne, Australia Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 168
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| Posted: Sun 22 Oct, 2006 4:19 am Post subject: |
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| Greyson Brown wrote: | I can tell you that my SL Knightly sword starts out 5mm thick at the guard and tapers to 2mm at the end.
-Grey |
Thanks for that. If I was to hazard a guess, it would be something in that vecinity.
Cheers
Tim
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Bruno Giordan
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| Posted: Wed 25 Oct, 2006 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: Distal specs |
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| Tim Harris wrote: | Apologies in advance if this is in the wrong place.
Would anyone be able to tell me the distal taper on the Albion Squire 15th Century bastard sword?
Thanks.
Tim Harris |
I have examined real specimens I would say that the trend is like that.
One of he hands on review actually mentions the distal tapers of the reviewed sword, it is the custom sword by Peter Johnson.
For the rest I guess the albion firm will not allow the publication of such datas.
But you may rely on studies of actual items.
My stocchi (estocs) were tapering from rougly 5.5 mm to 2 and something near the tip, at one half they were in the 4mm or less range.
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Wed 25 Oct, 2006 12:39 pm Post subject: Re: Distal specs |
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| Bruno Giordan wrote: | | For the rest I guess the albion firm will not allow the publication of such datas. |
The choice is solely that of myArmoury.com. Albion could not prevent us from publishing any data should we wish to put it out there. How could they stop us?
Our early reviews are not as consistent as the new ones. It took us awhile to decide exactly how we would do them.
We do not feel it necessary to post all numbers and stats for a given sword. The choice was to write commentary about an item, not have a statistical analysis of the swords. It's much too easy for people to get caught up in the numbers and never consider the "impression" left by the weapon. As discussed so many other places on this site, a sword's dynamic properties are extremely complex. it would not be possible for us to express those qualities in numbers.
The value of our reviews is the context that they provide.
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Bryce Felperin
Location: San Jose, CA Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 552
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| Posted: Wed 25 Oct, 2006 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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Best way to do it would be with a micrometer taking measurements at the guard and then the tip I figure. Not hard to do for anyone who owns the sword. So I figure that it wouldn't be any type of proprietary information if it was that simple to do.
Also if they don't have a care about you publishing the weight, CoP or any other such data, then why should they complain about distal taper?
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 25 Oct, 2006 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Bryce Felperin wrote: | Best way to do it would be with a micrometer taking measurements at the guard and then the tip I figure. Not hard to do for anyone who owns the sword. So I figure that it wouldn't be any type of proprietary information if it was that simple to do.
Also if they don't have a care about you publishing the weight, CoP or any other such data, then why should they complain about distal taper? |
Would probably be more complex than just measuring at the guard and close to the tip if the distal taper is not linear.
As far as being a " trade secret " reverse engineering from a bought specimen wouldn't be that difficult with micrometer if done every few inches or even closer together if necessary. Might not be that easy to use the information if done by a company not particularly dedicated to excellence and quality control: Wouldn't be able to make them much cheaper if the quality was equivalent. ( I guess slave labour in some very very dark corner of the world might be able to duplicate Albion quality at a lower price but I doubt there would be the necessary dedication to make it more than a superficially convincing knockoff.  )
Without getting into too much detail getting a ballpark impression of the distal taper might be of some value just satisfying basic curiosity even without getting into excessive detail: Like maybe at the guard, mid-blade and near the tip ?
Now I don't think Albion would be pleased making it easier than it should be to duplicate their research or copies of their CNC computer file hacked. At least someone would have to buy each sword and work for it ! Still I wonder if numbers are enough if the work was done by a company with no sword experience and it need years of experience to GET all the subtleties or a lot of talent ?
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
Last edited by Jean Thibodeau on Wed 25 Oct, 2006 9:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Angus Trim
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| Posted: Wed 25 Oct, 2006 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | Bryce Felperin wrote: | Best way to do it would be with a micrometer taking measurements at the guard and then the tip I figure. Not hard to do for anyone who owns the sword. So I figure that it wouldn't be any type of proprietary information if it was that simple to do.
Also if they don't have a care about you publishing the weight, CoP or any other such data, then why should they complain about distal taper? |
Would probably be more complex than just measuring at the guard and close to the tip if the distal taper is not linear.
As far as being a " trade secret " reverse engineering from a bought specimen wouldn't be that difficult with micrometer if done every few inches or even closer together if necessary. Might not be that easy to use the information if done by a company not particularly dedicated to excellence and quality control: Wouldn't be able to make them much cheaper if the quality was equivalent. ( I guess slave labour in some very very dark corner of the world might be able to duplicate Albion quality at a lower price but I doubt there would be the necessary dedication to make it more than a superficially convincing knockoff. )
Without getting into too much detail getting a ballpark impression of the distal taper might be of some value just satisfying basic curiosity even without getting into excessive detail: Like maybe at the guard, mid-blade and near the tip ?
Now I don't think Albion would be pleased making it easier than it should be to duplicate their research or copies of their CNC computer file hacked. At least someone would have to by each sword and work for it ! Still I wonder if numbers are enough if the work was done by a company with no sword experience and it need years of experience to GET all the subtleties or a lot of talent ? |
HI Jean
Not that easy really to copy something exact. A few of the better handworking smiths could come real close, but most pure handwork outfits would find it real tough and real tedious to do something like that......
The easiest and best way to do it, is to do it the CNC way. Del Tin, Lutel, Albion, and myself for sure use CNC machining to rough the blade blanks.......
But those already in the business usually are of the belief that what they're doing is better than the other guy, so copying the other guy would be beneath them......
Yeah, a machine shop owner could do it...... but here in the NW right now, the mills large enough to run a good sized blade are commanding $100/hr. You don't come close to that making sword blades........
And shop rate wise, the Northwest has been behind most of the rest of the country, Canada, Australia, and most of Western Europe.......... so there's very little reason to think in terms of copying a modern made sword.........
swords are fun
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Wed 25 Oct, 2006 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Angus Trim wrote: | | The easiest and best way to do it, is to do it the CNC way. Del Tin, Lutel, Albion, and myself for sure use CNC machining to rough the blade blanks....... |
Are you sure about this? Is this confirmable or is this speculation based on your expertise, etc.? Not that it's a big deal, but I guess I'm a bit surprised that they could afford (or justify) the equipment investment.
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Bruno Giordan
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| Posted: Thu 26 Oct, 2006 5:36 am Post subject: |
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| Bryce Felperin\ wrote: | Best way to do it would be with a micrometer taking measurements at the guard and then the tip I figure. Not hard to do for anyone who owns the sword. So I figure that it wouldn\'t be any type of proprietary information if it was that simple to do.
Also if they don\'t have a care about you publishing the weight, CoP or any other such data, then why should they complain about distal taper? |
Because unscrupolous thirld word makers who cannot afford research will likely make good copycats of their products.
After all PJ and Albion people worked hard to collect such infos, even if a researcher like PJ could publish stats gotten from publcly funded studies, stats of privately developed products could be considered a little trade secret.
I have stats from a private collection on several swords but I won\'t be publishing them, at last I won\'t be giving them to non-scholars.
If I decided to team up with some local brescian maker to create a line of swords I would just avoid to publish infos that could help others to build their products without doing any work but that necessary to copy the research of other people.
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Angus Trim
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| Posted: Thu 26 Oct, 2006 8:42 am Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: | | Angus Trim wrote: | | The easiest and best way to do it, is to do it the CNC way. Del Tin, Lutel, Albion, and myself for sure use CNC machining to rough the blade blanks....... |
Are you sure about this? Is this confirmable or is this speculation based on your expertise, etc.? Not that it's a big deal, but I guess I'm a bit surprised that they could afford (or justify) the equipment investment. |
Hi Nathan
Call it educated guesswork on Lutel..... possible I'm wrong......
And I don't have any info on Del Tin over the last five years. But, without spending a lot of time going into specifics, I had it confirmed several times that Del Tin was buying CNC milled blanks from a couple of local shops. That's old info though, even came out on SFI about 6 to 8 years ago........
CNC machining in this industry isn't that new really........ I'm not the first, maybe not even the second........
swords are fun
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Bryce Felperin
Location: San Jose, CA Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 552
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| Posted: Thu 26 Oct, 2006 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| Angus Trim wrote: | | Nathan Robinson wrote: | | Angus Trim wrote: | | The easiest and best way to do it, is to do it the CNC way. Del Tin, Lutel, Albion, and myself for sure use CNC machining to rough the blade blanks....... |
Are you sure about this? Is this confirmable or is this speculation based on your expertise, etc.? Not that it's a big deal, but I guess I'm a bit surprised that they could afford (or justify) the equipment investment. |
Hi Nathan
Call it educated guesswork on Lutel..... possible I'm wrong......
And I don't have any info on Del Tin over the last five years. But, without spending a lot of time going into specifics, I had it confirmed several times that Del Tin was buying CNC milled blanks from a couple of local shops. That's old info though, even came out on SFI about 6 to 8 years ago........
CNC machining in this industry isn't that new really........ I'm not the first, maybe not even the second........ |
I'm pretty sure Lutel uses a CNC machine like Gus says. I've seen quite a few Lutels and comparing three of their models (one owned by me and two by another friend of mine) I can see a lot of production quality uniformity in their swords as far as dimensions and shape (all three models use the same basic blade shape).
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Thu 26 Oct, 2006 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Angus Trim wrote: | Call it educated guesswork on Lutel..... possible I'm wrong......
And I don't have any info on Del Tin over the last five years. But, without spending a lot of time going into specifics, I had it confirmed several times that Del Tin was buying CNC milled blanks from a couple of local shops. That's old info though, even came out on SFI about 6 to 8 years ago........
CNC machining in this industry isn't that new really........ I'm not the first, maybe not even the second........ |
Thanks, Gus. It's an interesting thing to ponder due to the costs involved. Another topic would likely be best to discuss it. I've wondered about the possibilities of outsourcing such work, too.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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Tim Harris
Industry Professional
Location: Melbourne, Australia Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 168
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| Posted: Sun 29 Oct, 2006 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Angus Trim wrote: |
Not that easy really to copy something exact. A few of the better handworking smiths could come real close, but most pure handwork outfits would find it real tough and real tedious to do something like that......
The easiest and best way to do it, is to do it the CNC way. Del Tin, Lutel, Albion, and myself for sure use CNC machining to rough the blade blanks.......
But those already in the business usually are of the belief that what they're doing is better than the other guy, so copying the other guy would be beneath them......
Yeah, a machine shop owner could do it...... but here in the NW right now, the mills large enough to run a good sized blade are commanding $100/hr. You don't come close to that making sword blades........
And shop rate wise, the Northwest has been behind most of the rest of the country, Canada, Australia, and most of Western Europe.......... so there's very little reason to think in terms of copying a modern made sword......... |
In case anyone was wondering, I am not about to do an unscrupulous knock-off of the Albion, being a handworking smith, who has abandoned stock-removal for forging.
What usually happens is the customer comes to me and says "I want something like that". What they get will not be that. It will be what I forge to the general dimensions and weight of that.
I agree with you entirely about the difficulty of accurate copying. I have made several copies of a 1796 pattern British sabre, from detailed drawings and measurements, but I'd need a lot more skill to be able to call any of them a completely accurate reproduction.
The mention of CNC machining was a bit timely. I am not producing swords in a quantity to warrant it, although I have been asked about producing a number of training two-handers that would justify CNC machining. I am on the point of making inquiries here, but I'd be surprised if the hourly rate was that much different.
At the risk of diverting this thread into another direction, does anyone have any info on CNC costs elsewhere?
Cheers
Tim Harris
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Al Muckart
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| Posted: Sun 29 Oct, 2006 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruno Giordan wrote: | Because unscrupolous thirld word makers who cannot afford research will likely make good copycats of their products.
After all PJ and Albion people worked hard to collect such infos, even if a researcher like PJ could publish stats gotten from publcly funded studies, stats of privately developed products could be considered a little trade secret.
I have stats from a private collection on several swords but I won\'t be publishing them, at last I won\'t be giving them to non-scholars.
If I decided to team up with some local brescian maker to create a line of swords I would just avoid to publish infos that could help others to build their products without doing any work but that necessary to copy the research of other people. |
If an unscrupulous maker can afford a CNC machine then they can afford to just buy swords and measure them themselves, nothing Albion or any other maker can do about it.
There's so much more to it than that though. A *whole* lotta skilled work has to go into a sword after the blank comes out of a CNC machine, and it is that skill, as much as anything which makes the final product what it is I suspect.
--
Al.
http://wherearetheelves.net
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