[Matt Branch]

Is there any history or documentation of sword blades being remanufactured over time?
I have been trying to I D my sword and have had varied comments and suggestions.
One of which is that the blade was a 1700's spanish blade that was later decorated in a mexican theme.

The fullers are more like the swords I have seen from pre 1600's swords, does any one have photos of similar blades with fullers like these they can post?

Could the blade dimensions be changed without compormising the strength?

Could the blade be decorated a hundred years after it was made?

How did they decorate the blades?

The hilt seems to be newer than the blade but does not match anything I have found...especially the pommel,any thoughts on the hilt?

The over all length is 40" the hilt 5" the blade from the guard 35" the fullers are 8.5"

Thanks
Matt

[Glen A Cleeton]

Hi Matt,

It is hard to say the fullers look more like one period than another. It is very easy to say it looks like an 18th century Spanish flavor blade that was rehilted. A blade could certainly be etched or engraved at just about any time.

Every time you start a new thread in a given room, you are kind of defeating your own purpose. I'm not saying curiousity is a bad trait, it's just that these are not chat rooms and folk are not pursuing this 24/7. You may well yet have responses from folk that have not seen your current threads, or had a chance to get back to you.

About the only thing that has changed is that you have related your ancestor's possible involvement in the Mexican war as an origin, instead of the sword having come to the U.S.A. from the UK. I would pursue your family history a great deal more and try to nail down some more information on their military service.

As some cutlery efforts are entirely unique to the cutler, you may well never find an exact match and have all the ducks in a row. I have some antiques myself that boil down to best guesses and general timelines. Although exact data would be wonerful, I can place most of them pretty well in time and that is good enough for me (for now).

A case in point is a lance head that was re-hilted as a dagger, with carved bone and gold work. The source I bought it from speculated possibly Japanese. Six years later and I have pretty much determined none of the effort is Japanese, even though there are similarities.
It was on my table at a show last month and I had some interesting conversations with a couple of folk from the Phillipines, one insisting that it was tribal work and then a true descendant of native origin saying "No, done there by Moors, not natives." I'll likely never know for sure but it is a great conversation starter.

So anyway, my real hope is that you can better assess the family history of the sword a bit better. Whether your ancestor acquired the sword during campaign would be a good find. Give the folk in the Spanish forum of SFI a chance to mull it over and get back to you. Most are trying to at least give you a best guess. You have to understand though how unrealistic it is to expect absolutes at this point.

Cheers

GC

[Jonathan Hopkins]

Good points, Glen. I have some swords about which I am glad to know the little bit I do know. E.B. Erickson could be quite right about that blade being earlier (18th century). Fullers never really went out of fashion, however, so it is hard to say for certain. I recommend searching www.oldswords.com to see what you can find in the way of 19th century tri-fullered blades. If you want to learn about the etching process, I suggest searching the Antique and Military subforum on SFI, as I am sure that topic has been covered before. (But it might warrant a new one here on myArmoury.)

I am not sure how this could be accomplished, but it would be nice if all the threads about this sword could be merged into one. This would make it easier for those who are trying to help and/or learn about your sword, because all the info gleaned thus far would be in one place. It would probably be helpful to you, too, Matt. (You have received some good responses on the Spanish Language subforum on SFI, I think.)

[Matt Branch]

[Bruno Giordan]

It bears a very good resemblance to the profile of a typical schiavona blade.

[Matt Branch]

[Matt Branch]

[Bruno Giordan]

[Adam Simmonds]

it certainly does look nimble,

whatever it is, its a beautiful blade, much better looking (in my opinion) then the blades usually atttached to such cavalry sabre hilts, but then, i am a fan of straight, slender blades

cheers, adam

[Glen A Cleeton]

Hi Matt,

I hope I didn't sound like a school marm, not my intention. Keeping all the data in one place does help others from having to ask all the same questions again.

Not a ferrule but a ricasso is what you are seeing of your blade. A ferrule is a grip component.

I'm linking this page here as well because it was where I drew my first impressions in response to your first post at SFI. This is the page of Spanish cavalry swords. Might as well give newcomers to the topic more information.

http://bermudas.ls.fi.upm.es/~pedro/tropacab3_e.htm

Even some of the 19th century line cavalry blades could be said to bear resemblence but the look is very much that of the 18th century blades.

One other less travelled forum you might try is over at www.vikingsword.com Several from everywhere make the rounds to all these boards but you never know who might not have had a gander at it yet.

Cheers

GC

[Matt Branch]

Here are the other threads I have looking for info on my sword. Hope this works!

The Spanish Language S F I Thread

http:/forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&thread72173[url]

This one shows a Espada de Barinas that has 3 fullers

http:forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&thread72783[url]

[Matt Branch]

[quote="Glen A Cleeton"]Hi MAtt,

I hope I didn't sound like a school marm, not my intention. Keeping all the data in one place does help others from having to ask all the same questions again.

Not a ferrule but a ricasso is what you are seeing of your blade. A ferrule is a grip component.

I'm linking this page here as well because it was where I drew my first impressions in response to your first post at SFI. This is the page of Spanish cavalry swords. Might as well give newcomers to the topic more information.

http://bermudas.ls.fi.upm.es/~pedro/tropacab3_e.htm

Even some of the 19th century line cavalry blades could be said to bear resemblence but the look is very much that of the 18th century blades.

One other less travelled forum you might try is over at www.vikingswords.com Several from everywhere make the rounds to all these boards but you never know who might not have had a gander at it yet.



Thanks for the links Glen.
The ones I tried to put up didn't work and I even read the instructions.
Lets have fun out there
Matt

[Jonathan Hopkins]

Matt,
I didn't mean to sound scolding either--sorry if I did. Good luck in your quest.

Jonathan

[Glen A Cleeton]

my error

www.vikingsword.com

An extra sssss always messes thing up. You got to that post before I editeded it.

Cheers

GC

[Matt Branch]

[Gordon Frye]

There is certainly plenty of evidence of older blades being mounted on more "modern" hilts. A good example is the sword of Captain Philip Broke, RN (Captain of HMS Shannon, which defeated USS Cheasapeak off Boston in 1813), as shown in "Boarders Away" by Wilkerson. It was a highland broadsword blade from the early 18th Century, rehilted to fit the taste and fashion of the early 19th Century, and supposedly was a family heirloom which Broke wished to carry into battle himself. And he did.

There are numerous other examples out there, and Colonial America, especially Spanish Colonial America, was notorious for using and reusing serviceable pieces from older weapons, be they swords, firearms or whatever. There just wasn't enough iron available to manufacture a lot of this sort of thing, coupled with the strict Spanish merchantile laws, to not do so.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Nathan Robinson]

Matt, please preview your posts before you send them. You're not using the codes very well and they're coming off formatted badly, especially the quoted text. I've corrected many of them for you, but I'm done doing that because it's too much work. Your tags all need an opening tag and a closing tag. Please look at our BBCODE FAQ for help.

Additionally, after reading this topic and the several others you've posted here and on other sites about your sword, I'd like to make a comment that your methodology surrounding your quest for info on your sword seems misguided to me. It seems that you already have a few ideas of what you want this sword to be and you're trying to find evidence for it to fit within those preconceived notions. Many of the things that have been told to you have been disregarded. Further, you're looking at specifics attributes of your sword and trying to apply them to antique examples in an attempt to justify calling your sword such a thing. The fact is that later swords borrow characteristics from older swords, despite having absolutely no direct connection to them.

A triple-fullered 1780 schiavona, for example, has nothing to do with a triple-fullered Oakeshott Ttype XIV sword from centuries early, despite the fact that they share the common traits of having three fullers, a grip, a cross-guard, and a blade. What you need to do is find your sword documented and stop looking at each trait independently and attempting to connect the dots. You could play that game forever and it would lead to 100s of candidates for your sword. In the end, you'd be no closer to your answer than you are now.

You've been given many suggestions as to the era of your sword. I now respectfully suggest you invest in books or a professional appraising service to find your answers.

[Matt Branch]

[Matt Branch]

I am new to computers as well as swords, didn't mean to make work for you, sorry.
Matt

[Matt Branch]

Jim McDougall has identified my sword as an M1769 Spanish Trooper Pattern.
I will look for others of that pattern.
Again, Nathan sorry for the problem.
Thanks
Matt