What would the coat of arms be on this blade? -- myArmoury.com

Matt Branch

I tried to scan some images of the blade on my copier, does any one recognise the coat of arms?
Thank you
Matt

Matt Branch · Posted: Wed 04 Oct, 2006 1:53 pm Post subject:

A couple more

Greyson Brown · Posted: Wed 04 Oct, 2006 2:34 pm Post subject:

I really can't make that out very well. Is there a chance that you could do a drawing or try to describe the arms?

-Grey

Matt Branch · Posted: Wed 04 Oct, 2006 3:37 pm Post subject:

There is a floral pattern above an eagle with up stretched wings and a snake in it's beak.
Above thaton on this side is a canon, a bugle and a drum, above that is a flag pole with un furled flag on the left and a floral pattern on the right.
The top of the design looks like the top of a feather.

Matt Branch · Posted: Wed 04 Oct, 2006 3:48 pm Post subject:

On the other side of the blade above the eagle is another floral pattern, above that ( coming out of the floral pattern) are two jars or urns. There is a sword handle and part of the blade sticking out of each the urns.
Above that is hard to make out, it could be some material tied onto a pole and cross member, I don't think it could be a sail
It looks like the drapes you see behind politicans during news conferances...kind of.
The top again resembles the shap of a feather.

Nathan Robinson · myArmoury Admin

I'm having a difficult time making out the photos, too. Here is another version of what was posted. It might add another view, if not some clarity.

Martin Wilkinson · Posted: Wed 04 Oct, 2006 4:28 pm Post subject:

It could be purely decoration and not a coat of arms.

William C Champlin · Posted: Wed 04 Oct, 2006 8:38 pm Post subject:

The eagle with a snake in it's beak is the usual decoration found on Mexican military blades , most often on the guard. I've seen one however with the snake etc. on the blade. W.

Al Muckart · Posted: Thu 05 Oct, 2006 1:01 am Post subject:

Looking at this with an admittedly out-of-practice heraldic eye, I can't make out anything on that which looks like actual armory, it just looks like decoration. None of it appears to be organised in a fashion consistent with heraldic art.

Nathan Robinson · myArmoury Admin

Greyson Brown · Posted: Thu 05 Oct, 2006 6:16 am Post subject:

I have to agree with both of the ideas mentioned above. It doesn't sound like a true coat of arms, and the eagle/snake combo makes me think it is probably of mexican origin.

-Grey

Matt Branch · Posted: Thu 05 Oct, 2006 7:26 am Post subject:

Thank you all for you're thoughts!
Being new to swords I'm trying to find out what is what.
I've been told that this is a mexican dragoon sword would you agree?
Also that this style with 3 fullers like this came out of solingen.
I can't seem to find photos of that makers early swords,
Any good web sites with photos?
Thanks
Matt

Nathan, Thanks! How did you do that with the pics?

Matt Branch · Posted: Thu 05 Oct, 2006 8:11 pm Post subject: The Eagle

I have been having trouble finding an eagle similar to the one on my sword.
All the mexican eagles I have found have the wing tips pointing down, the tips on my engraving point up.
I found a similar eagle on The Distunell Treaty map of 1848 which shows the boundry between mexico and the U.S.
I haven't found a real good image of the eagle.
Does anyone out there know of one that I could compare?
Thanks
Matt

Chris Henderson · Posted: Fri 06 Oct, 2006 1:27 pm Post subject:

Thats not a coat of arms, its just decoration. Typically a coat would never be depicted on a blade anyways. However, sometimes swords would have devices form their owners coat etched on them. But by the standard definition this is not a coat of arms. You could however search for families that have an eagle clutching a serpent displayed promonatly on thier coat.

Matt Branch

The eagle on my sword seems to be close to a match to the eagle on the Disturnell Treaty map of 1867.
Would that be significant?
Would that establish a date?
An eagle with up streched wings seems to be pretty rare in Mexican Flags, Currancy and Stamps.
What are you're thoughts?
Thanks
Matt

Craig Johnson · Industry Professional

Hi Matt

Iconography on two separate un related objects can sometimes be difficult to connect with specific dates. The issue comes down to what came first and did one influence the other ( not specifically usually just in the use of that style of symbol as far as how prevalent was it). It can be even harder if the two items have no provenance as it creates the possibility one may be done in an antique style which can leave a large gap of time.

In your case I would say these two do look as if they are related style wise and may well be from the same period. The map eagle has the date so it is likely that the sword is from approximately the same period but it is only a general similarity at this point. If the style of hilt is to early or late for that period then one has something that is more tenuous than something that fits closely with other examples from the period.

Best
Craig

Matt Branch · Posted: Mon 09 Oct, 2006 11:01 am Post subject:

Thanks Craig.
The most noteable thing about the 2 diffrent images is that after looking at lots of Mexican eagles all but these 2 have their wing tips pointed down, so it seemed to me that one influenced the other. I am still trying to see if the hilt is the right type for the date and to confirm if the sword is a Mexican Dragoon.
I have been told that because it is double edged and has the 3 fullers as they are, that it is Soligen. I'm still looking for more info on that maker.
Thanks for you're comment.
Matt

Chad Arnow · myArmoury Team

E.B. Erickson · Industry Professional

Hi Matt,
I've been looking at your photos both here and on SFI, and something's been tickling away in the back of my brain, and I finally figured out what it was. I think what you've got there is an old Espada Ancha or Spanish Cavalry broadsword blade from the 1700s that has been rehilted in the 1800s and etched at that time to reflect current politics. The blade type (broadsword with the 3 fullers) is very common in the 1700s on Spanish colonial and military swords, and I've seen examples of them rehilted with several different hilt types in the 1800s. Yours is the second one I've seen that has been etched with themes particular to the 1800s. The other one was on eBay maybe 5 years ago, but I unfortunately don't have any photos of it, and can't remember what the hilt was like, other than it was a typical 1800s design.

--ElJay

Glen A Cleeton · Posted: Tue 10 Oct, 2006 4:56 am Post subject:

My first thoughts on this were quite similar, a Spanish dragoon blade (whether German production or not) that was rehilted.

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=71588

If Matt's provenance is correct, this ended up in Wales or Scotland before crossing the pond. I guess it's also possible it made the trip more than once because Britain as well had interests in central America.

As a stumbling novice myself, I have no clue as to the folding hilt itself. I do feel that that cutlery effort would probaly place it better in time and location.

Cheers

GC