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Al Muckart
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 Posted: Sun 09 Jul, 2006 6:51 pm Post subject: Help building a wire-wrapped hilt |
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Hi all, I'm after some pointers here.
I want to rehilt a sword which has a hilt like the one on the famous german longsword we all know from the display at the royal armouries and the cover of Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight. The one discussed in this article. The metal bits of the hilt exist, I'm just looking to rebuild the grip as a learning experience.
The problem is I have no idea how to deal with the wire-wrapped portion.
I get the basic ideas of using counter-twisted pairs to get the nice herringbone effect etc, and I can easily enough build a jig to twist up the wire for me but where I'm stuck is working out how to secure the ends of the wrap. I've done a search on the forum and seen mention of "turks head" knots, but they don't make sense to me in th is context since the turks head knots I know would leave a big lump in the grip.
I'm also not sure whether to underlay the wire wrap with leather or terminate the leather portion just under the first turn or so of the wire wrapping.
Does anyone have info on how to go about this?
Thanks in advance.
--
Al.
http://wherearetheelves.net
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Brian M
Location: Austin, TX Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 500
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| Posted: Sun 09 Jul, 2006 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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I believe Jim Hrisoulas describes how to do it in "The Complete Bladesmith," IIRC. That book should be pretty findable.
You might do a search of the archives here, since I seem to remember Peter Johnsson making some comments on it as well.
Brian M
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 10 Jul, 2006 1:10 am Post subject: |
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One way to do this is to secure the wire with small nails.
Tap the nail in almost the whole way, turn the end of the wire once around the nail stem, clip of excess wire and wrap the wire around the grip so you have one or two complete turns. Then tap the nail down all the way, locking the wire securely in place.
This can be done with one single wire and one single nail, or two countertwisted wires and two nails (one on each side of the grip: this is more tricky). Note that this type of partially wire wrapped grip often used just one single wire, not two with a herring bone effect, even if that is also seen.
The other end is secured the same way.
Then take some extra nails and tap them down. They are partially decorative but also helps secure the first and last turn of the wire all the way around the grip.
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Brian M
Location: Austin, TX Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 500
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| Posted: Mon 10 Jul, 2006 9:54 am Post subject: |
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Drooooool! 
Is the wire-wrapping typically done over a bare wood grip, or with a layer of leather beneath the wire? How much weight would a full wire-wrapping add to a single-hand hilt of say 4" grip?
So basically the possibilities are:
1) Single-strand, wound in one direction around the grip.
2) Two separate strands, wound in opposite directions around the grip simultaneously.
3) Single strand composed of a twisted pair of wires, wound in one direction. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what is used on the sword you posted above?
Are there any period, location, and/or sword-type distinctions between these three methods? Or is the available evidence highly mixed?
I've always really loved the look of a twisted-wire grip. Are there any Norman-type swords with such a grip?
Regards,
Brian M
Last edited by Brian M on Mon 10 Jul, 2006 9:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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Adam Welch
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| Posted: Mon 10 Jul, 2006 9:57 am Post subject: |
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My jaw dropped when I saw this hilt.............
Factus est Dominus Protector Meus!
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 10 Jul, 2006 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| Brian M wrote: | Drooooool!
Is the wire-wrapping typically done over a bare wood grip, or with a layer of leather beneath the wire? How much weight would a full wire-wrapping add to a single-hand hilt of say 4" grip?
So basically the possibilities are:
1) Single-strand, wound in one direction around the grip.
2) Two separate strands, wound in opposite directions around the grip simultaneously.
3) Single strand composed of a twisted pair of wires, wound in one direction. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what is used on the sword you posted above?
Are there any period, location, and/or sword-type distinctions between these three methods? Or is the available evidence highly mixed?
I've always really loved the look of a twisted-wire grip. Are there any Norman-type swords with such a grip?
Regards,
Brian M |
First: yes, the leather covers the complete grip and the wire is wrapped on top of the leather.
1) Yes, this can be done, although two or three wires twisted together would be the far most common thing. You see sometimes untwisted wire mixed with one twisted or two twisted in opposite directions (herringbone effect). Such wrapping is most commonly seen on 16th C swords and later. But very few 15th C hilts with intact wrapping has survived.
2) You mean to wind two strands in opposite directions around the grip? That would mean them crossing on each side. I have never seen this. I do not think that is ever done. Perhaps I misunderstand you?
3)The grip showed above is indeed wrapped with a single wire twisted from two strands. That is a pretty common or standard method on grips of this kind.
Difficult to say about connection to certain types or ages. Few wire wrapped hilts have survived from medieval times. Those that have survived are generally grips on rennaissance swords or later.
A sword of the age of Normans could perhaps have a wire wrapped grip, but only one or two have survived from this period that has a wire wrapping of the grip. One well known example is the sword of saint maurice in Vienna, but there is some dispute of the authenticity of the wire wrapping of that sword.
Another is a type X sword in the Army museum of Paris. It is unusually large and has silver wire (untwisted) wrapped around the grip.
A few more remains of wire wrapped grips has survived from the viking age.
Hope this helps,
Peter
Last edited by Peter Johnsson on Mon 10 Jul, 2006 11:45 am; edited 2 times in total
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Craig Johnson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 10 Jul, 2006 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| Brian M wrote: | Drooooool!
Is the wire-wrapping typically done over a bare wood grip, or with a layer of leather beneath the wire? How much weight would a full wire-wrapping add to a single-hand hilt of say 4" grip?
So basically the possibilities are:
1) Single-strand, wound in one direction around the grip.
2) Two separate strands, wound in opposite directions around the grip simultaneously.
3) Single strand composed of a twisted pair of wires, wound in one direction. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what is used on the sword you posted above?
Are there any period, location, and/or sword-type distinctions between these three methods? Or is the available evidence highly mixed?
I've always really loved the look of a twisted-wire grip. Are there any Norman-type swords with such a grip?
Regards,
Brian M |
Hi Brian
There are actually quite a few different types of patterns and attachment methods one could use. Peter has described one of the most common for longsword grips. The patterns for how the wire can be twisted and how attachment is done can vary and as you look at grips on later swords the variety increases. The type of sword and style of hilt will dictate what is most probable for a period replica but the diversity seen is much greater than most people realize.
The picture of Peter's sword shows a single twist wire. I have seen some that have just a plain untwisted wire wrap as well as what he has described.
The weight would be so light as to be unnoticeable with out a scale measuring to grams or 100ths of a pound would be my guess and it would probably be in the range of 1 to 2 grams. Most people can not detect this difference in weight on the grip.
I have seen some Nordic swords with wire remnants that seem to indicate a bound grip I am not sure if there are any specificly Norman pieces with absolute provenance for a wire grip off the top of my head, but it would not surprise me.
As for regional styles Peter would have a better idea than myself but I have not noticed any specific trends.
I have seen both leather under the wire and no leather under the wire(though there may have been and it is rotted away on such examples.
As you get into the more complex grip coverings you will see many ways to attach the wires or cording used and the way it was hidden, covered or not by the grip maker.
Hope this helps.
Best
Craig
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 10 Jul, 2006 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| Peter Johnsson wrote: |
A sword of the age of Normans could perhaps have a wire wrapped grip, but only one or two have survived from this period that has a wire wrapping of the grip. One well known example is the sword of saint maurice in Vienna, but there is some dispute of the authenticity of the wire wrapping of that sword.
Another is a type X sword in the Army museum of Paris. It is unusually large and has silver wire (untwisted) wrapped around the grip.
A few more remains of wire wrapped grips has survived from the viking age.
Hope this helps,
Peter |
Are any of those including the one in Paris verifiably Viking age remnants? I remember seeing several like that in Pierce's book but to me most of them looked like someone much later had fancifully wrapped some wire around the grip or in a couple of cases even around the bare tang.
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
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Angus Trim
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| Posted: Mon 10 Jul, 2006 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Peter Johnsson wrote: | One way to do this is to secure the wire with small nails.
Tap the nail in almost the whole way, turn the end of the wire once around the nail stem, clip of excess wire and wrap the wire around the grip so you have one or two complete turns. Then tap the nail down all the way, locking the wire securely in place.
This can be done with one single wire and one single nail, or two countertwisted wires and two nails (one on each side of the grip: this is more tricky). Note that this type of partially wire wrapped grip often used just one single wire, not two with a herring bone effect, even if that is also seen.
The other end is secured the same way.
Then take some extra nails and tap them down. They are partially decorative but also helps secure the first and last turn of the wire all the way around the grip. |
Beautiful work Peter...........
swords are fun
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 10 Jul, 2006 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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Peter;
To avoid getting off topic I would suggest and very much like if you started a TOPIC showing this sword in a full length picture.
I think we would all like seeing more and learning more about it.  
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Mathias Andersson
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| Posted: Mon 10 Jul, 2006 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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Amen to that! Beatiful work!
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Kenton Spaulding
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| Posted: Mon 10 Jul, 2006 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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That sword is stunning...
Al, I remember a thread from last fall started by Kirk Spencer where he did a wire-wrapping on an MRL Irish ring-hilt to make it look similar to Anduril. I looked this morning, but didn't find the thread. I know that Kirk has done some really excellent step by step recordings of the processes he uses during his customizations, I don't know but he may have given a good account of his wire-wrapping. Sorry I couldn't be more informative, might be worth poking around for though...or sending Kirk a pm.
Kenton
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Brian M
Location: Austin, TX Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 500
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| Posted: Mon 10 Jul, 2006 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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Peter,
I misunderstood your first explanation. Just to clarify:
Rarely a single strand of wire was used in combination (alternating?) with a strand of two twisted wires.
Most commonly the grips were two or three wires twisted together and then wrapped around the grip.
Is the Type-X you're talking about the one that looks strikingly like a type-XIV with the curved guard and strongly tapered blade?
My next sword is definitely going to be the Bayeaux. Whether it's totally correct or not, I would love to see this in a wire-wrapped grip. I might even have to do it myself!
Thanks,
Brian M
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Al Muckart
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| Posted: Mon 10 Jul, 2006 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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That is a stunning hilt Peter, thank you for posting that information. I'll see if I can track down some appropriate nails and give that a go.
--
Al.
http://wherearetheelves.net
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Al Muckart
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| Posted: Mon 10 Jul, 2006 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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Well I'm a bit of a wally for failing to use the search function properly.
this thread has the info about the turks-heads.
A bit that had been eluding me previously was the fact that the turks heads are a separate thing to the wire wrap itself. That makes a whole lot more sense.
The idea of using nails is still really appealing 
--
Al.
http://wherearetheelves.net
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Kirk Lee Spencer
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| Posted: Thu 13 Jul, 2006 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Kenton Spaulding wrote: | That sword is stunning...
Al, I remember a thread from last fall started by Kirk Spencer where he did a wire-wrapping on an MRL Irish ring-hilt to make it look similar to Anduril. I looked this morning, but didn't find the thread. I know that Kirk has done some really excellent step by step recordings of the processes he uses during his customizations, I don't know but he may have given a good account of his wire-wrapping. Sorry I couldn't be more informative, might be worth poking around for though...or sending Kirk a pm.
Kenton |
The thread is Open Ring Irish Swords
There is a link on the first page to the Home Improvement Forum at SFI where I gave more details on the wire grip.
The way I attach the wire is to take coarse sand paper and scratch the surface of the end of the wire and then epoxy it into a hole I drill in the wood of the grip core.
ks
Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Greg Thomas Obach
Industry Professional
Location: Elliot lake Joined: 17 Dec 2003
Posts: 59
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| Posted: Fri 14 Jul, 2006 5:17 am Post subject: |
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after its wrapped ..a lite coat of varnish on the wire... helps alot to keep it very secure and stiff...
Greg
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This is a standard topic