[Jonathon Janusz]

i was just looking through the picture galleries for hilting inspiration [which worked btw] when i came across a few pictures of executioner's swords. a couple questions came to mind:

first, to any who have observed or studied in detail originals, what type of distal taper do these weapons generally exhibit? or is there none at all, assuming one were creating a sword which was more meat cleaver [literally] than weapon to be used on a field of combat?

second, it appears to me that the photographs show the weapons as having hand and a half or better grips [say perhaps 10-inch overall hilt length?] while maintaining fairly short blades [say no more than two feet, making the weapon overall not much longer than three?]. am i in the ballpark with these figures or is the camera playing tricks?

i have to admit i was attracted very much to the hilt on the first picture in the series [page 8 of the misc. swords i think] and what appeared to be the imposing mass and presence the weapons gave. i also have to admit that i am a bit of a rennie and, until about five minutes ago lacking any grand original historical inspiration, began contemplating a somewhat morbid but unique persona career change. . . and perhaps the faintest beginnings of a new project.

Jon

[Craig Johnson]

Hello Jon

They have some distal but still carry a lot more weight in the blade than most swords. They are definitely designed for one thing and that was a "cleaving" blow much like delivered by an axe. There are several descriptions of these pieces not working that well even with these attributes. I think the desire to be beheaded by a sword has more to do with their being used then their effectiveness at actually cutting heads off.

Craig

[Peter Johnsson]

Craig,
I have a different impression of these swords, but I think you are right in saying the preference for the sword was more because of the "nobility" of the weapon rather than the fact it was more efficient. When being beheaded by a sword your head remain more or less upright, while you will stoop down at the block when the axe is used to take your head of, like an animal to be slaughterd. That, I think, might have been more important to those that could choose the sword over the axe. Just speculation....

I´ve looked at a number of these grim implements, having handeled maby 20 or so.
It is not unusual to find a number of them sitting around in major collections.
They have a different "aura" than most other swords. I do not know how much this is just me imagining things, or the fact that a sword made just to take the head of a defensless fellow is more distrubing than a weapon made for the duel or the battlefield. Their killing aspect is difficult not to see. The fact that many are made by dedicated craftsmen and are fine exampes of bladesmiths and culters skill, does not help.

Anyways, they are interesting subjects for a study in cutting edges and performance/balance.
Some are clumsy and rather lumbering things, but most are well balanced for their task.

They are in general heavier than weapons for war of the same general size. (Their size is somewhere between a big single hand and hand and a half sword, with a typical blade length of some 85 cm, blade with 5.5-6.5 cm and hilt lenght of some 25 cm, weight around 1750-2050 grams. As I have never documented any of these I do not have data for point of balance and pivot points. From memory I would place the point of balance about 12-15 cm in front of the cross).
It is interesting to see how the mass is distributed. Pommels are not overlarge, but of a fair size. Grip length is just enough to allow comfortable room for two hands. The blades are very stout at the base (some 7-8 mm thick, sometimes more) and often taper dramatically during the first third of the blade. The outer third of the blade is usually very thin (0.8 - 1.5 mm at the very tip and perhaps 2.5 mm at the start of the cutting section). The section is a very acute lenticular shape.
In some swords the edge angle is about the same as on a battle field weapon but on most of those I´ve seen, the edges are quite like that of a filet knife, or a steak knife. There is one executioners sword in Skokloster armoury that looks like it has a regular double edged blade, but it´s the last 6 inches that are sharpened and on one side only. This is the thinnest and sharpest edge I have ever seen on a sword. Scalpel comes to mind. This is no exaggeration. The edge of this sword shames my own kitchen knifes by a wide marigin.

The balance and edges of these are such that they do not function as weapons. They have a balance and design aimed for efficient cutting, nothing else. Not so heavy that they are difficult to accellerate in a cut (by a trained professional), but not as responsive as a weapon needs to be if it is to be used in a fight.
A sword patterned after a headsmans sword could perform extremely well for modern test cutting...

A few executioner swords I´ve seen have had different section, distal taper and character, They were much blunter, having more the edge of a common wood working axe and with less distal taper. I do not know if these were of lower quality or made to the preference of a particular headsman.

I think that reports of repeated swings was more due to the mistake of the headsman rather than faulty design of his tool.
Even if it is your profession, I would guess that it takes a rather unusual personality to sweep the head of a victim in one blow without flinching...If he has fortified himself in advance with wine, brandy or gin it will not help his aim either. If the victim does not remain perfectly still but dodges ever so little it could also mean a second cut was necessary.
...Ouch!

No wonder Henry the VIII employed a well known french swordsman to do his cutting.

[Peter Johnsson]

Oh, and:
The surviving scabbards for these swords that I´ve seen do not have belt attachments. It makes sense they were not intended to be carried strapped to the waist.

[Thomas McDonald]

"When I raise this sword, so I wish that this poor sinner will receive eternal life"

165. Executioner's Sword
Germany, late 17th century. . Steel, wood, brass, copper wire. OL - 108.9 ; BL - 85.7 ; Grip length - 15.0 ;
Quillon width - 22.5 ; Weight 2.30 kg . Inscribed (on blade) :
WAN ICH DAS SCHWERDT THU AUFF HEBEN SO / WUNCSCH ICH DEM ARMEN SUNDER DAS EWEGE LEBEN

* Arms & Armor , The Cleveland Museum Of Art

Mac

[Craig Johnson]

Hello Peter

I would not say a different impression. My comments should be in the context of your post as it is much clearer than I was able to put together. I would agree with what you posted and after reading mine again I am a bit disappointed in myself. :-) Sorry Jon. The intention of my "not working well" comment was to get at the mechanical difficulties of the beheading, i.e. stability of target, experience of headsman, that type of thing. Just did a poor job of getting it across.

I am not sure how many of these I have come into contact with over the years as some I have run into I think are very marginal as being made to actually use. I am rehilting a blade of an original right now and it seems to be quite reasonably in the envelope you describe, but several I have come in contact with were definitely more in the line of "symbols of justice" as apposed to tools for the headsman. When you start to see how many of these are around as well, I start to think it may well have been quite a Victorian fashion to have a Headsman's sword in your collection and the market responded. Thus the ease of finding them on ebay and such.

The "Symbol of Justice" types may well be the heavier blunter versions you describe. For this type of work the filet edge, thin thickness blade would be far more efficient than any type of thicker blunter piece ( this may be quite nuanced for outside readers. This could be one of those things were Peter and I might have a different definition of some of these aspects then a general reader of sword history. If I maybe so bold and trying not to put words in Peter's mouth :-) Thin can be very very thin on sword blades far more than is obvious.) In fact the key to this type of cute would be angle of entry and keeping the blade in plain as tightly as possible. If the wide blade begins to lift are fall along the backedge even slightly it could make it very difficult to get a clean cut. The thinner the blade the easier it would be to correct such a cut. Thus once again its the sword ground interface which has so very much to do with success.

Well I best get to work. :-) Thank you for the excellent post Peter and sorry about the sloppy one by me Jonathan. My brother from another mother did it much better than I. :-)

Stay Warm all

Craig

Peter how cold you got it right now. My air mass originated in Siberia so I figure its shifted all east and north so you must have a fine mediterranean breeze kicking up across the snow and ice :-)

[Jonathon Janusz]

thanks for the replies, gentlemen.

and yes, Peter, the thought of test cutting did come to mind. here in Wisconsin around the beginning of November it is pretty easy to come by a few hundred pumpkins no one wanted for halloween dirt cheap. . . I'd think a reasonable facsimile of a man's squishy bits. . .

so, anyone curious enough to make a project of it? just for future reference.

Jon

[Sean Flynt]

Are the holes (usually three) seen in the distal end of some execution swords for the attachment of a weight? I read that somewhere, but haven't ever confirmed that this is true. It sort of makes sense, but then sort of doesn't. Why not simply make a blade with more mass at the distal end? Were weights added to blades that simply didn't have the mass they needed to do the job efficiently? I mean, was this a way for executioners to fine-tune their instrument? It seems unlikely that the holes were merely decorative....

[Thomas McDonald]

Good ol E-bay has one for sale .....

Mac

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem...egory=1552

[Peter Johnsson]

[Peter Johnsson]

[Brian M]

Sounds like an executioner's sword is a slightly modified Type-XIIIa.
I suppose the three holes aside from any practical function might represent the Holy Trinity.

Brian M

[Sean Flynt]

I remember teachers who drilled holes in their paddles! In the days before Ritalin/Soma, we disruptive students lived in fear of a drilled paddle. Legend had it that the drilled paddles moved faster through the air and hit with greater force. There might be something to that if the object is moving broadside through the air, but it couldn't make much difference moving through the air edgewise. Maybe the sword holes ARE noisemakers/decoration. Maybe they DO represent the Trinity. So, who volunteers to go to a museum and start swinging away with their 400 year-old executioners swords so we can see if they whistle "Dixie" when the reach the optimal speed and angle of stroke? :-0

[Stephen A. Fisher]

From a museum in Salzburg.

[Jeffrey Hull]

I would add, from what I understand, that Anne Boleyn chose the sword over the axe for her execution as it was her right as a noblewoman to do so. JH.

[Craig Johnson]

Peter

Hmmm lets see, I know, I bet I can drink more of Eric's Port than you can

Holes in the blade are an interesting element. Symbolic, may well be. Sound, thats an interesting idea, I never thought of that. Probably have to get the blade moving pretty well to be useful. I have thought about this a bit as you often will come across swords with the holes in the blade at various points. Why.

The hunting variety of swords for detachable cross bars.

I have always wondered about the circle on the foible of the large sword held by Dürers Irish soldier. Seems to me, to be a dang handy way to hang the sword when not in use. Maybe??

Makes you wonder when you see this type of stuff if they had a decorative concept or a functional element. Instead of adding weight it might be to reduce weight. Though the amount removed would hardly be noticeable. If they were to add weight why teardrop shap and not round or a slot for that matter to position the weight were the user liked. Hmmmmmmmmmm

Need to ponder some more.

Best
Craig

PS Mac is that seller in England? Looks like the background used by a well knowen seller of unique items on ebay

[Thomas McDonald]

[Peter Johnsson]

[Eric McHugh]

Port, Port, Port...I have a really nice Graham Tawny still in the cabinet. I WILL be stocking up on Optima for Peter's visit, so you two can test your theories, but as with many aspects of research, you often overlook various elements: for example, Eric may drink more of Eric's port than the both of ya!

So as to keep this from being chucked into the "Off-Topic" forum, I will comment. When I was with Peter we looked at many of these swords, to be honest, they give me the creeps. All I can think about is fat, infertile kings and innocent girls named Anne...

I was amazed at the different styles of the sword...even so, they were easy to pick out as a headsman's sword. One of them (perhaps the Royal Armoury) looked like the edge had been slightly rebated by someone...perhaps as a way of safely storing it (I don't know). Even in this condition, it was obvious that it was designed to support a wicked cutting edge. I wasn't feeling that well the morning we went to the Royal Armoury, so while Peter was flirting...I mean talking to the nubile, blond attendent, I was trying to keep my breakfast down. I say all of this to say that I didn't ask as many questions as I would have liked. I will say that in any condition, these swords make an impression that you do not easily forget.

[Jeremy V. Krause]

I thought that I may be able to offer a small bit of personal opinion about the issue of the three holes in the executioner's blade.
Along with historical weapons I have an interest in historical depictions of the Christian faith, especially that of the high middle ages. In looking at artwork of figures and stories and decorations of reliquaries and other devotional objects I am not aware of any time the Trinity was represented as an ABSENCE of matter i.e. holes. Indeed the Triune God is almost never given representation in one place, except for Crucifixes where the Father is shone as an outstretched hand and the Spirit as a bird or dove. I do not blieve these holes have a religious significance. Thanks, Jeremy