[Anders Kramer]

Hello

I wonder if you could help me. I have startet on a little project, but hav run in to a problem. I am recreating a Templar uniform (as well as i can anyway.), and now i have reached the point of creating a scabbard for my sword, as well a a belt for the scabbard.

Is there anyone who have an idea of what a scabbard and belt from the time periode, and for a holy order souch as this, would look like?

regards,
Anders

[Russ Ellis]

[Elling Polden]

pretty much like everbody else's, I guess
Take a look in the manuscripts from the period; Maciowski, or Manesse
The style is pretty simple. Typically black scabard and white belt.
Either a plain, D shaped buckle, or a knot.

http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/sammlung2/al...ame=cpg848

Note the sword welt, with the split end. Each end is slipped through one of the holes in the right end of the belt, and tied in front in "speed release" knot.

[Chad Arnow]

By the end of the Templars' main period (when they were largely extinguished in the 14th century), the order was quite wealthy and powerful and had probably strayed from its original rules and regs.

Anders, which part of the 13th century are you looking at re-creating? If it's earlier, that main mean more austerity and plain-ness in the belt and scabbard than perhaps late in the century.

Here are some pics of a period suspension:





Some more period correct suspensions can be found here: http://www.novae-militiae.com/Pictures/Equipm...swords.htm

[Elling Polden]

Actually, the fashion is less austere in the beginning of the cent, grow minimalist in the middle, and then more flashy again...

The 12th cent still featured the "flashy" and decorated fashions of the eastern, Byzantine style. As the crusades came along, the west developed a more "independent" fashion; The wide trimings and embroderies dissapeared, and so on.
When fashion swung back, it did so with shorter, tunics with more than one colour, more jewlery...

This is quite evident if you compare for instance Bayoux -> maciowski bible -> Manesse

[Jared Smith]

If you are going for the full brother rank of Templar, I doubt you need concern yourself with overdoing the quality of the scabbard. Diamond studs or gold leaf might be going too far, but a really nice scabbard is believable.

An all white uniform with red cross is actually the mark of a full brother or master (masters may have had some additional markings, but these I have not seen explained.) Alleged lists of these "full brothers" can be found and rarely seem to include someone not of significantly nobility, extreme weath, or political (church or government/royalty connection) clout. Founding and higher ranking members often seemed to possess at least two of these qualifications. As far as I know, their entire private estates did not just disappear after joining the order either. I would bet they made some pretty nice donations though.

The number of full brothers was pretty small during their actual "defense of Jerusalem" era (supposed lists of full brothers were shorter than 200 for most of their existance including those spread all over Europe.) The "poverty" myth and what "full brothers" really did with most of their time during their initial 10 years in Jerusalem has been challenged as quite different than the popular version of the story. I will leave reviews of such texts (I examined several on a bookstore shelf this past Tuesday) to others.

Lesser knights (middle class / gentry), esquires, clerical members and others had different types of ensignias. The middle class gentry/ lesser knights/ highly skilled men at arms typically obtained the rank of sergeant. A sergeant wore a brown mantle rather than a white one. A clerical /clergymember (and they did participate in combat) member wore a green mantle. I have read this in more than one place, but am at the moment quoting from a not so great reference based on research of the gnostic Freemason text "The Hiram Key", page 33.

[Peter Johnsson]

The original rules the Templars lived by is available in english.
It records rights and duties of the members of the order.
It makes for some interesting reading (even if it is no great page turner...)

I would strongly reccomend it to anyone who is interested in doing templar reeancting.

Perhaps you already have this book?
I have myself only read parts of it, and I cannot now remmber if I´ve seen any regulations as to sword scabbards.
If I find anything, I´ll get back and post it.

The Rule of the Templar
Translated and introduced by J. M. Upton-Ward
Boydell & Brewer
ISBN 0-85115-701-7

[Anders Kramer]

Thanks a lot for the help all of you. I already know the book, but i haven't read it yet, but thanks a lot any way, it's allways nie to know that it's informative reading so i don't feel like i'm gonna waste my money.

After having considered all you infrmation, i ended up with this design. What do you think, is it totally ascrew?

[Greyson Brown]

That's Albion Gaddhjalt scabbard. It is intended to represent a typical scabbad from the late 11th century to the early 12th century, so that look would not be a bad choice. If you take a look at Albion's Period Scabbards page, you can see several others that are similar. These scabbards, however are made specifically for the sword in question, and so there is a very good chance that your sword would not fit in the scabbard.

Kevin Iseli used to make scabbards for Albion (good chance that he made the one in the picture), and is now doing custom scabbards on his own. I don't have a website for him, but he posted this message in which he list his business e-mail. You could send him an inquiry, and see if he is the one you want to work with.

Russ Ellis can also been found on these forums, and he makes scabbards as TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards. He has several different lines of scabbards, so there is a good chance that you can find something you like at an affordable price.

Christian Fletcher has also started taking orders for scabbards on swords not ordered through him, again. Youcan check out his work and see if it is in line with your desires.

There are also several threads on this forum about Do It Yourself scabbard making. Here are just a few:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=6096
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=5835
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=3811

Whether you go with one of the people listed above, do it yourself, or find some else, keep doing your research, so that you know what you want. I would hate to see you put a lot of money, effort, or both into a scabbard and then a couple years later say, "if I'd only known then..." Too many of us have had moments like that.

Hope that helps a bit.

-Grey

[Kevin Iseli]

Thanks Greyson!

That is indeed the Gaddjhalt scabbard that I made a few years ago. I think both that scabbard and perhaps Albion's Norman scabbard may be a typical type for that period. (11th -12thC.)
Thanks for linking my E-mail address. Some other pics of my past work and current projects can be found on: http://www.gagedesigns.com/

Best,

[Kevin Iseli]

The similar Norman:

[Jared Smith]

I fully support all of the above examples and would say that the finest Kevin can produce of "plain materials" (not adorned with gold or non-functional gaudy jewels or logos representing alternate affiliations) can not be proven as unacceptable by the Templar rules.

The following link looks to be a reasonable interpretation of order's "older" rules.

http://www.ordotempli.org/ancient_templar_rule_of_order.htm

There is really nothing that requires a knight who joined with exceptional quality weapons to forfeit them. You may also notice prohibition against esquires and lower ranks wearing the white mantle (68 ), prohibition against gold ornaments on bridles and such (52), etc. At some point the uniforms evolved to the point where jeweled emblems of office and other adornments were added (details not clear.) From the earliest days (original 9 members), the higher ranking members have been characterized as socializing in the highest court circles, as banker/ diplomat/ warrior. It would be difficult to believe that their would be any lack of "good quality construction" in their equipment.