[Jared M. Olson]

I have seen a lot of fantasy type swords that feature a leaf type blade (note especially "Sting" from the Lord of the Rings). While I thought at first that this style of sword was completely fictional, I saw some swords on Christian Fletcher's website, based on some Angus Trim models, that feature this leaf style blade and seem to be legitimate and functional. Also, the website mentions that the leaf-blade was used by the Greek, Romans and Phillipinos. Does anyone know anything about this? I'd love to hear your comments. I particularly like the leaf-blades, I think they look great, but I also want a sword that is functional, that would work well in a battle situation. Anyone know anything about leaf-blades and their historicity and functionality?

I attached three of these Fletcher swords.

[Peter Johnsson]

The leaf ashaped blade belongs to the very early history of the steel/iron sword in Europe.
(You can find leaf shaped swords in other part of the world as well, but I will not cover these.)

The early iron Hallstatt swords were shaped exaclty in size and shape as their bronze predecessors. It is very likely that iron/steel and bronze swords were used side by side in this period, at least towrds the end (700-600 BC).
These swords are longish, having blades reaching into 80 cm+.

The big leaf shaped Hallstatt sword was replaced by the straight double edged LaTène sword of the Celts. (see the long thread about Celtic swords for examples). The typical celtic sword is therefore not leaf shaped as it´s often shown in popular media.

The Greeks favoured a straight slightly leaf shaped sword called Xiphos (meaning somehting like "penetrating light" ) Its size varied over time and in different regions but often had a moderat length blade (some 50-60 cm). Spartans favoured a design that was really not much larger than a sturdy dagger.
The Xiphos was also a decendant of the bronze sword. The hilt was constructed in a sandwich design, with organic grip slats over a tang that had the complete outline of the hilt. Over the organic slabs were placed thin strips of iron or bronze and all riveted together (the construction of the hilt is very similar to the roman Pugio dagger actually, only add a separate polmmel on the Xiphos). The pommel was smallish: usually barrel shaped.
The scabbard had an reinforcing piece at the mouth that was formed to give a secure seating for the guard of the sword. This is an element you can see on earlier bronze swords as well. The Javanese Keris has this feature on their scabbards as well, only even more developed.
The Xiphos was carried in a slim baldric so it hung close to the body under the left arm.
On vase paintings you can see it was used both for stabbing and slashing.
The blade could have a midrib, or be diamond or lenticular in section.
Personally I think the Xiphos is a very beautiful design. A very hadndy and efficient sword for its time and available materials. Like other good designs it can be varied within its restrained limits and offer a rich spectrum of expressions.

Other leaf bladed designs were used by the Iberian celts and the Romans, but these are not always direct developments from bronze weapons. (Perhaps the spanish weapons are? not sure about that...)

In all, one could point out that historical leaf bladed designs are uaually rather restrained in the waisting of the blade. The Hallstatt and earlier bronze swords are the ones that look most like the designs so popular in fantasy art.

If you look at ealry iron age swords you will find a rich material that invites new interpretations and can be used as inspiration for countless contemporary sword projects. It is a fascinating material.

[Nathan Robinson]

Peter: excellent overview. Thank you.

To add: Jared, all the swords you are showing in your post are of "contemporary" (fantasy) design.

[Russ Ellis]

Jared if I understand the thrust of your question you are wondering if leaf shaped swords are both historical and functional. The answer to both is yes... with some qualifications. Mr. Johnsson has done a nice job of laying out the historical background behind leaf blades. He shows that historically leaf bladed swords did exist although not particularly in the sizes or configurations of those swords you have pictured. This makes the Angus Trim swords you have posted fantasy pieces (as Mr. Robinson noted) - that is there is no true historical precedent for them although there were historical leafblades. I've handled two of the swords you have pictured and seen test cutting done with them as well. They seem to be as robust and as durable as anything else that Mr. Trim produces - that is they are completely functional. Therefore, you need to decide what are the most important characteristics to you and then buy accordingly.

[Gordon Clark]

By the way, here is another attractive fantasy sword I find very appealing

http://www.bladeart.com/artists/tinkerblades/michael_pearce.htm

(by Michael Tinker Pearce)

[Jared M. Olson]

I realize that Angus Trim and Christian Fletcher both classify these swords as "contemporary" and "fantasy." The question burning in my mind is this: would these contemporary swords be at all effective against their historical counterparts? I have grown fond of the Oakeshott Type XV, XVI, and especially XVIII for their dual functionality, both cutting and thrusting. What sort of function would these modern leaf blade swords have? Would they suffer any gross disadvantages agaist their historical straight edged counterparts, or are the differences purely cosmetic? Thanks for those who have posted and for your help thus far.

[Russ Ellis]

[Jonathon Janusz]

I'm going to echo Russ on the performance end of things. Keeping this blade style in context, it was primarily used against folks wearing little to no armour on the battlefield, a very different scenario than the era commonly represented by types XV and XVI. Further, I recall a discussion about many of these swords historically being very light, slashing kinds of cutting swords. As many of the historical swords featured organic hilt components (meaning not as much mass in the same places as later period metal-hilted swords), they needed to be balanced for use almost entirely before adding the comparitively light hilt components. An example by Peter Johnsson I had the opportunity to examine before hilting and a bare Al Massey blade I have in my possession come to mind as very clear examples of the principle.

The neat thing I've seen (second hand through forums and such) is that the leaf blades Gus makes can be tweaked both ways. The fantasy pieces Christian Fletcher makes are one way of going about things, but if you do a search either here or on SFI (can't remember off the top of my head) you will find at least one if not two very well put together atrim leaf blades hilted in more historically plausable styles by some very talented cutlers.

[Kirk Lee Spencer]

[Russ Ellis]

Nice post Kirk. I hadn't really considered why leafblades might have disappeared in the first place...

[Jared Smith]

Kirk has interesting theories on why leaf blades would have appeared. I applaud this and attempt similar things myself from time to time. I would add one.

I think the leaf shape adds mass at a location close to the center of percussion, where it does the most good in cutting (sort of like concentrating mass of a golf club near the head where it is meant to strike the ball, rather than all along the shaft, handle, etc...) Not having unnecessary mass elsewhere helps reduce fatigue and loss of speed that could result from a gradual taper profile blade.

The curve is likely to add at least some slicing action. My wild guess is that strain reduction and slicing benefit will be limited (less than 10% improvement over straight blade.) "Percieved hand shock" will be somewhat reduced and more of a combination of a rotational moment plus shock or kick at the grip. Try a curved head versus a straight edge axe if you ever get the chance. I think some may buy into the idea that hand shock is a little more gentle when a curved edge hits an imperfect (non perpendicular) aligned surface during its arc. This can be belabored with physics, but is pretty tedious. To get dramatic reduction in hand shock really requires balancing mass in pommel area, center of percussion. If one considers speed tangential too arc versus perpendicular to the swing of the swords arc, a curved blade profile really only offers a few percent of slice. However, this could make the difference on opening up a vein!

I also wonder if there is not some type of symbolic significance (tree lore or other aspect) of the shape that would also have made it desirable among those who used it?

[Sergio Duarte]

Greetings
First I would like to know if someone knows why they stoped making flat wide tangs like on most of bronze swords that actually have a tang.
Second:



With longer swords with more reach the Cog is even further from the hilt and thus slows the sword down even more. So what advantage you might have in the cut is diminished by the increased disadvantage of having a sword, which was harder to redirect or recover…
[/quote]
Jumping to mace design does this concentration of weight in the head make them slow and didifficulteapons to redirect? I remember that it is said the mace was one of the favorite weapons for close combat in medieval times. Sorry to post this question here but it came to my mind now.

[Sergio Duarte]

[Lafayette C Curtis]

[John Cooksey]

[Jeroen Zuiderwijk]

[Sergio Duarte]

[Chad Arnow]

Sergio,
Quoting is very simple:

-Hit the quote button on the post you want to quote.
-That previous post will appear surrounded by quote tags like: [quote="Chad Arnow"]Blah blah[/quote]
-Type your text before the first tag or after the last. If you type between them, you'll screw things up.

It's really as easy as pie. If you're having trouble with it, please use the test forum to experiment. Please don't make us have to decipher incorrectly done posts.

Remember also that there is a preview option that lets you look at your post before it's posted for real. If it doesn't look right, try to fix it and preview it again. Again, please spare your fellow readers from having to try to figure out what you're doing.

If you find after you've posted that something doesn't look right, edit your post and fix it. If you can't fix it, delete it and start afresh. Please don't make extra "Oops, I messed up" posts. They're off-topic and add nothing to the discussion.

[Jeroen Zuiderwijk]

[Sergio Duarte]