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J. Bedell
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 Posted: Mon 23 Jan, 2006 4:53 pm Post subject: never seen this weapon, can anyone identify it? |
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HI,
I have never seen this weapon before, i found it on the post about the Frazier Arms Museum and it looks very interesting. This really piques my curiosity, so I was wondering if anyone could identify it, give me some background info, maybe its origin and history?
Just curious.........thanks
-James
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Mon 23 Jan, 2006 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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That's an Indian Katar. It's a push-knife, basically. Beautiful piece.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 23 Jan, 2006 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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The Katar usually has the tip, the last 5th of the blade or so thickend so that it will pierce the maille of maille and plate armour better. The two parallel bars in the middle are gripped by the hand so these are held basically perpendicular to how one would grip a regular knife. Sometimes called "punch daggers" there are three interesting sub members of the family. In one the blade is larger than most and the twin grip bars slide controlling a spring. When gripped tight this causes the large blade which is actually two halves to spread open revealing a smaller blade inside. The misconception is that this was meant to be done in the victim causing a bad wound but was actually used for parring. The second group again has a large blade but has a smaller katar inside. In effect the larger is a sheath for the smaller. The third are VERY large and have a big basket guard around the grip(these are sometimes known as hooded katars) for protection when parrying. I believe the last sort were commonly used in northern India.
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Mon 23 Jan, 2006 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Allan Senefelder wrote: | | The third are VERY large and have a big basket guard around the grip(these are sometimes known as hooded katars) for protection when parrying. I believe the last sort were commonly used in northern India. |
These are more correctly known as pata, the distinctly Indian gauntlet sword:
http://i.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/000140/140479.jpg
"Hooded katar" is a made-up English term that refers mostly to a sort of katar with an additional guard curving back from the cross:
http://i.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/000140/140485.jpg
Some more photos and drawings of katar, pata and assorted Indian weapons:
http://talks.guns.ru/forummessage/79/85314.html
There are two major styles of katar: the Northern, broad and often lavishly decorated, and Southern, plainer and with a narrower blade; these correlate more or less to the Northern and Southern styles of kalarippayat, the Indian tradition of martial arts.
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 24 Jan, 2006 5:37 am Post subject: |
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No the pata is a gauntlet sword and the gaurd is over the hand the hooded katar is a katar with a large gaurd under the hand like a very large broad D-gaurd.
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Wolfgang Armbruster
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| Posted: Tue 24 Jan, 2006 5:55 am Post subject: |
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Can someone tell what this is? A pata with a shield?
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 24 Jan, 2006 6:22 am Post subject: |
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Wolfgang , that certainly is a new one on me. Where'd you find it?
Stone's Guide depicts all three types of katar as well as swords using this type of grip(open not enclosed like a pata). Both stones and swords and Hilt Weapons show a type i'd forgotten about in which there are two narrow blades side by side.
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Wolfgang Armbruster
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| Posted: Tue 24 Jan, 2006 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Wolfgang , that certainly is a new one on me. Where'd you find it? |
It's on the same page Mikko Kuusirati posted earlier in this thread: http://talks.guns.ru/forummessage/79/85314.html
Therefore I thought that it might be an Indian weapon. It's probably an ultra-rare item 
It's as odd as it gets (includng the duelling-shields in one of the Talhoffer manuals).
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Alexander Hinman
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Tue 24 Jan, 2006 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Allan Senefelder wrote: | | No the pata is a gauntlet sword and the gaurd is over the hand the hooded katar is a katar with a large gaurd under the hand like a very large broad D-gaurd. |
I'm not sure I follow... what exactly do you mean when you say "under" the hand? Something like the first four ones in this picture? (That's what I've always thought the "hooded" katar was.)
http://i.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/000140/140485.jpg
If not, can you dig up any pictorial reference? It would help.
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 24 Jan, 2006 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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Those are hooded katars and from the few manuscript pics i've ever seen the gaurd was under hand like a knuklebow rather than over the top like the guard of a pata/gauntlet sword. I'm not sure why this would be so and perhaps it is the same "take it with a grain of salt" that one often has to do with European manuscript illustrations its just the only way i've seen them held thus the "hood" under the hand.
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Adam Bodorics
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 25 Jan, 2006 2:43 am Post subject: |
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Hooded katars come over your hand... there are a few extremely beautiful hods out there, it would be a crime to hide those... When I'll get home, I'll post a few pictures.
BTW, pata is the gauntlet sword (75-90cm blade), tooroom is the same in dagger-size. There is no difference in name with other katars, even as there are some with 10cm blades and some with 90cm blades. Some katars in the 16-18th century (especially southern ones) were made from broken blades, preferably european ones, which is thought to be a reason of the more slender blades.
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Thu 26 Jan, 2006 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| Allan Senefelder wrote: | | Those are hooded katars and from the few manuscript pics i've ever seen the gaurd was under hand like a knuklebow rather than over the top like the guard of a pata/gauntlet sword. I'm not sure why this would be so and perhaps it is the same "take it with a grain of salt" that one often has to do with European manuscript illustrations its just the only way i've seen them held thus the "hood" under the hand. |
Ah, that's the confusion - actually, both the "hood" and the pata basket guard are placed on the outside, over the knuckles, and open on the palm side; the only difference in configuration is that the hood is merely a plate added to the outside of a katar, and the pata (and apparently tooroom - there's a new term for me) hilt is a full basket or gauntlet, and made of one plate without the side bars of a typical katar.
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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This is a standard topic