[Borger Kruge]

Hi again,

I remember I saw some footage at the ARMA web-site apparently of two men sparring with rapiers of a historic-looking design, and parrying/clutching only with some sort of glove on their weak hand. This being ARMA leads me to think that this technique might be based upon something historical, but would a renaissance duelist actually use a glove to catch a rapier thrust? Wouldn't a rapier pierce any material one could reasonably expect a 16th to 17th century glove to be made of? Or am I missing something?

Borger

[Geoff Wood]

[Allan Senefelder]

Leather is very cut resistant stuff . I've had the same leather shop apron for five years and all it does every day is
have sharp metal edges drawn across it . Its use as armour from the earliest times is well documented .
I'm far from an expert on 16th-17th century sword play but it seems perfectly servicable as a technique
based on the properties of the material the glove would have been made out of .

[Björn Hellqvist]

When I visited the Royal Armouries in Leeds a few years ago, I saw several gloves with fine chainmail in the palms. They were intended for fencing, to catch the blades without cutting oneself.

[Stephen A. Fisher]

[Robert Zamoida]

In our school we practice techniques using the off hand as a supplemental defense, combined with body voids, in single rapier play. The basic idea is, as Geoff said, to hit the blade and force it further off line, and we use it as a foundation for rapier and dagger play, since the hand motions are similar. Of course, when we actually spar sometimes we catch the tip instead, but it's much better than catching the tip with your chest, head, etc, especially if your opponent catches your tip in their chest, head, etc.

[Bill Grandy]

Everyone has already given very good points, so I'll try not to repeat too much. But yes, the gloved off hand can be used for defense. Digrassi points out that a wound to the hand, while not a good thing, is certainly better than being wounded someplace more lethal. But most masters agreed that parrying with the hand was no where near as optimal as parrying with the sword. In fact, Fabris says, "Those who parry with the hand are easier to kill than those who defend with the sword." Blade grabbing was considered bad form. Some people have said this was silly ettiquette, but based off of the manuals I very much disagree. Blade grabbing was bad form because the hand is easily deceived, and much easier to go around than the sword, so that a good rapierist will have little trouble defeating it.

The use of the off hand was still common, though, as the use of maille-lined gloves would support, and even Fabris's manual shows hand parries. It's as Robert said, the hand is used as a supplemental defense.

[Björn Hellqvist]

[Eric Gerry]

Nit-picking time! It wasn't DiGrassi, but Saviolo:

L. But I praye you tell me, is it not better to breake with the Swoorde, then with the hand? for (me thinketh) it should be dangerous for hurting the hand.

V. I will tell you, this weapon must bee used with a glove, and if a man should be without a glove, it were better to hazard a little hurt of the hand, thereby to become maister of his enemies Swoorde, than to breake with the swoord, and so give his enemy the advantage of him.

Moreover, having the use of your lefte hand, and wearing a gantlet or glove of maile, your enemy shall no sooner make a thrust, but you shal be readye to catch his swoorde fast, and to command him at your pleasure: wherefore I wish you not to defend any thrust with the swoorde, because in so dooing you loose the point.

L. But I pray you, is it not good sometimes to put by a thrust with the swoord?

V. I will tell you when it is good to use the swoord

Generally, Saviolo defends with a stoccata on the inside, a passata on the outside, and a generous helping of hand parries (which, of course, carries over easily into rapier-and-dagger).

[Bill Grandy]

Not nitpicking at all, Eric, thank you for the correction.

I have Saviolo, DiGrassi, and Silver all in one book, and I sometimes confuse quotes from the two Italians.

[Jim Post]

[Bill Grandy]

It's called Three Elizabethan Fencing Manuals. Here's a link to Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-...mp;s=books