| Author |
Message |
|
Iain Norman
|
 Posted: Tue 17 Jan, 2006 6:34 am Post subject: canted/bent hilts on Medieval straight swords |
 |
|
Hi all,
Long time reader of these forums, but I now have a question that a forum search couldn't resolve. Flipping through "Records of the Medieval Sword" I came across a type XVIIIa (XVIIIa. 2, page 187 in my copy) with a canted or angled hilt. Oakeshott mentions in the text that this bend was forge made, and therefore I assume intentional.
pic from the XVIII article by Sean Flynt (for some reason breaks when I add the img tags)
My question is there any other examples of this combination of a straight blade with an angled hilt known? Is there any indication of why this variant would have come into use (practical advantages?)? I find this example a rather attractive piece despite it's odd look.
|
|
  |
 |
Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
|
| Posted: Tue 17 Jan, 2006 7:06 am Post subject: Re: canted/bent hilts on Medieval straight swords |
|
|
| Iain Norman wrote: | | My question is there any other examples of this combination of a straight blade with an angled hilt known? Is there any indication of why this variant would have come into use (practical advantages?)? I find this example a rather attractive piece despite it's odd look. |
Hi Iain
I'm uncertain about a feature like that on swords of the medieval period but later centuries certainly had blades that were purposely out of line with their hilts !
I have an antique baskethilt in my collection, c. 1650-1700's, that incorporates this feature (photo below).
One of our forum members, David, wrote the following in an old SFI thread when I posted about this sword !
Hope this helps a little ? , Mac
David Black Mastro wrote :
"Unless my eyes deceive me, that last pic appears to reveal that your sword features that peculiar angled blade (ie., the blade actually angles a bit forward, as opposed to being completely in-line with the tang/grip. This, in turn, produces a "leading edge", which makes for more effective cuts. It is the same principle as the sharply-angled blades of German halberds of the late 15th and early 16th centuries, as well as guillotine blades. Other swords that make use of the "leading edge" in one form or another include the Turkish yataghan, the kukri (sp), the Greek kopis, the Iberian falcata, and the majority of Filipino swords (which tend to have a very pronounced angle between blade and handle)--bolos, krisses, & talibongs.
Another advantage of the "leading edge"/angled blade configuration is that it allows a sword to be held with the point in-line for thrusts that are "within compass", while still maintaining a "fist" grip on the weapon (this utility is of course dependent upon how "pronounced" the angle between the blade and handle is).
Prior to the development of the angled blade on basket-hilts, users of the Anglo-Scottish "short sword" were forced to make use of the weaker "saber grip" when thrusting "within compass" (with the sword in-line with the arm), in order to match the straight-thrust capability of the rapier. George Silver talks about this in his Brief Instructions Upon My Paradoxes of Defence of circa 1605 (and I've mentioned this elsewhere--please forgive me for repeating myself!)."
|
|
 |
|
|
Iain Norman
|
| Posted: Tue 17 Jan, 2006 7:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
|
I should have been more specific that I was mainly interested in Medieval swords with this feature, but interesting information none the less. Thank you! The issue of maintaining the fist grip in the thrust is particularly interesting and would seem to logically apply to the example I posted.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Gary Grzybek
Location: Stillwater N.J. Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 559
|
| Posted: Tue 17 Jan, 2006 9:14 am Post subject: Re: canted/bent hilts on Medieval straight swords |
|
|
| Iain Norman wrote: | Hi all,
Long time reader of these forums, but I now have a question that a forum search couldn't resolve. Flipping through "Records of the Medieval Sword" I came across a type XVIIIa (XVIIIa. 2, page 187 in my copy) with a canted or angled hilt. Oakeshott mentions in the text that this bend was forge made, and therefore I assume intentional.
pic from the XVIII article by Sean Flynt (for some reason breaks when I add the img tags)
http://www.myArmoury.com/view.html?features/pic_spotxviii07.jpg
My question is there any other examples of this combination of a straight blade with an angled hilt known? Is there any indication of why this variant would have come into use (practical advantages?)? I find this example a rather attractive piece despite it's odd look. |
Are you sure he didn't mean the ends of the guard being angled from the forge? To me an angled grip would make the sword feel awkward and unbalanced. I had a sword bend on me like that once and it felt terrible and unwieldy in the hands until I bent it back.
Gary Grzybek
ARMA Northern N.J.
www.armastudy.org
|
|
|
|
|
|
Iain Norman
|
| Posted: Tue 17 Jan, 2006 9:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
|
Well the direct quote is, "The hilt is in much better condition than the blade, which has a distinct, forge-made bend in it." To me this clearly indicates the hilt/tang and not the guard when taken in context with the image.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
|
| Posted: Tue 17 Jan, 2006 11:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Iain Norman wrote: | | Well the direct quote is, "The hilt is in much better condition than the blade, which has a distinct, forge-made bend in it." To me this clearly indicates the hilt/tang and not the guard when taken in context with the image. |
The other thing is that you are assuming that the forged bend was on purpose? Maybe someone was just having an off day? Or perhaps it was made to the specs of a particular owner whoe wanted it that way for a reason. I certainly don't see this as being common.
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
|
|
|
|
|
|
Iain Norman
|
| Posted: Tue 17 Jan, 2006 11:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Russ Ellis wrote: | | Iain Norman wrote: | | Well the direct quote is, "The hilt is in much better condition than the blade, which has a distinct, forge-made bend in it." To me this clearly indicates the hilt/tang and not the guard when taken in context with the image. |
The other thing is that you are assuming that the forged bend was on purpose? Maybe someone was just having an off day? Or perhaps it was made to the specs of a particular owner whoe wanted it that way for a reason. I certainly don't see this as being common. |
Good points, which was why I was wondering if other examples are known from the time period with these features.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Gene Davis
Location: Long Island, NY Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Posts: 20
|
| Posted: Tue 17 Jan, 2006 1:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Iain Norman wrote: | | Well the direct quote is, "The hilt is in much better condition than the blade, which has a distinct, forge-made bend in it."To me this clearly indicates the hilt/tang and not the guard when taken in context with the image. |
Oakeshott is clearly referring to the blade in this statement. Put a straightedge along one side of the blade pictured and then along the other. The blade curves to one side. The overall effect is a pronounced leading (long) edge, with the handle angled accordingly.
|
|
 |
|
|
Wolfgang Armbruster
|
| Posted: Tue 17 Jan, 2006 1:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I guess this is most likely a unique sword(assuming that the leading edge is intentional). I doubt someone bothered to make another one like that.
Such a hilt-to-blade configuration screws up most longsword/sword techniques. Try doing a Schielhau with such a sword.
Also proper edge alignment might cause problems. Having said that I've never handled such a sword. I just have difficulties imagining fencing with that piece 
It might work well for a modern fencing foil, but not for such a sword.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Iain Norman
|
| Posted: Tue 17 Jan, 2006 1:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Gene Davis wrote: |
Oakeshott is clearly referring to the blade in this statement. Put a straightedge along one side of the blade pictured and then along the other. The blade curves to one side. The overall effect is a pronounced leading (long) edge, with the handle angled accordingly. |
You are without a doubt correct. I noticed the obvious angle on the hilt first and ignored the grammar. My thanks for pointing that out. The angle on the hilt tends to stick out and thus I didn't think to compare the blade itself.
If this was a unique sword I would think it would have been intentional since a customer would have been unlikely to accept a blade that would not suite the fencing systems of his day.
|
|
|
|
|
Steve Grisetti
|
| Posted: Tue 17 Jan, 2006 3:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Iain Norman wrote: | ...You are without a doubt correct. I noticed the obvious angle on the hilt first and ignored the grammar. My thanks for pointing that out. The angle on the hilt tends to stick out and thus I didn't think to compare the blade itself.
If this was a unique sword I would think it would have been intentional since a customer would have been unlikely to accept a blade that would not suite the fencing systems of his day. |
Another possibility to consider is that the angle is an error, and, rather than scrap the piece and start all over again, the maker sells it at a substantial discount due to the apparent defect. A 'factory second', if you will. That sort of practice is a common occurrence today.
"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
|
|
|
|
|
|
Iain Norman
|
| Posted: Tue 17 Jan, 2006 4:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Steve Grisetti wrote: |
Another possibility to consider is that the angle is an error, and, rather than scrap the piece and start all over again, the maker sells it at a substantial discount due to the apparent defect. A 'factory second', if you will. That sort of practice is a common occurrence today. |
I thought about that, but I would think that the angle error would have been noticed before pommel and guard would have been fitted. I'm a bit fuzzy on blade production during this time period, but I seem to recall that many blades were not fitted by smith that forged them. I would hesitate to think that a smith would dispatch a flawed blade to a cutler with a defect that would adversely affect performance (as opposed to cosmetic errors). Even if the blade was fitted with the furniture in the same workshop that forged it, would it not make more sense to save the hilt and pommel, as well as wood, leather, cord or what have you, for another project, than to bother trying to sell a flawed sword? If it had a bad fuller, or other 'sloppy' cosmetic issues I could see that happening.
I'm not saying you're wrong mind you, history is a funny thing, I have to admit I have no idea what a smith could do with a blade with this type of defect to possibly recycle it and not have to write off a total loss (perhaps a spear blade or two?). So perhaps you are right. If no other sword has turned up with similar characteristics from the same broad time period then I'd tend to lean towards the idea of a 'factory second'. Or else it is simply a unique sword that borrows something from falchions and messers.
|
|
|
|
|
Jean Thibodeau
|
| Posted: Tue 17 Jan, 2006 4:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The Noble ordering the sword wouldn't pay what he promissed so the smith made him a bad sword just before moving, quickly, to the land of that Noble's most powerful ennemi. 
Or, too much beer driking on the job.  
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
Last edited by Jean Thibodeau on Wed 18 Jan, 2006 11:30 am; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jeff Pringle
Industry Professional
Location: Oakland, CA Joined: 19 Nov 2005
Posts: 145
|
| Posted: Tue 17 Jan, 2006 9:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | the angle error would have been noticed before pommel and guard would have been fitted |
I once heat treated a sword blade and it looked fine, but after chopping through a few 2x4s began to look remarkably like the curved sword with bent hilt above. I like to test my blades before putting the hilt together, so I caught the error - but in a commercial shop back then they might not have noticed the flaw - until it was gone from the shop.
Technical digression -
Simple, shallow hardening steels can sometimes (if they are relatively low in carbon and/or the quench medium gets too warm) get a thin skin of hardened metal over a soft, unhardened core. This will allow you to check to see if it's hardened with a file & get a good result, even perhaps put a good edge on - but the blade will bend when under stress.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
|
| Posted: Wed 18 Jan, 2006 6:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Jeff Pringle wrote: | | Quote: | | the angle error would have been noticed before pommel and guard would have been fitted |
I once heat treated a sword blade and it looked fine, but after chopping through a few 2x4s began to look remarkably like the curved sword with bent hilt above. I like to test my blades before putting the hilt together, so I caught the error - but in a commercial shop back then they might not have noticed the flaw - until it was gone from the shop.
Technical digression -
Simple, shallow hardening steels can sometimes (if they are relatively low in carbon and/or the quench medium gets too warm) get a thin skin of hardened metal over a soft, unhardened core. This will allow you to check to see if it's hardened with a file & get a good result, even perhaps put a good edge on - but the blade will bend when under stress. |
Ooo another good thought. there Jeff! Maybe Oakeshott was wrong and it wasn't forged that way at all...
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
|
|
|
|
|
|
Iain Norman
|
| Posted: Wed 18 Jan, 2006 6:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Jeff Pringle wrote: |
I once heat treated a sword blade and it looked fine, but after chopping through a few 2x4s began to look remarkably like the curved sword with bent hilt above. I like to test my blades before putting the hilt together, so I caught the error - but in a commercial shop back then they might not have noticed the flaw - until it was gone from the shop.
Technical digression -
Simple, shallow hardening steels can sometimes (if they are relatively low in carbon and/or the quench medium gets too warm) get a thin skin of hardened metal over a soft, unhardened core. This will allow you to check to see if it's hardened with a file & get a good result, even perhaps put a good edge on - but the blade will bend when under stress. |
That's actually a very helpful post. I had been under the impression that if the blade was going to curve and distort it would show up right away after the quench. I think you've probably hit this one squarely on the head. Though it would be interesting to see an analysis on the blade.
| Quote: | | Or, too much beer driking on the job. |
Jean, perhaps this was a case of a mead quench gone wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jesse Frank
Industry Professional
Location: Tallahassee, Fl Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 144
|
|
|
|
|
Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
|
| Posted: Wed 18 Jan, 2006 7:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Jesse Frank wrote: | | I'm with Jeff on this one... |
It did strike me as a bent tang, as well !
Tangs could be very soft on some of these old swords and bends were probably common enough !
I'd imagine that some swords that appear straight & true now could also have suffered the same deal but were just repaired at some point ! Perhaps this one just never got fixed ?
Mac
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jesse Frank
Industry Professional
Location: Tallahassee, Fl Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 144
|
| Posted: Wed 18 Jan, 2006 7:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
I think you are right on the money, Thomas.
In experimenting with ancient construction techniques, I found that the stuff with a soft wrought iron tang, spine or cores bent rather easily when subjected to any sort of heavy chopping. Almost always an extremely easy matter to fix, and there are historical accounts of folks having to straighten out swords/spears ect. during battle. Take for example the great care given to cutting technique in japanese swordsmanship to avoid bending the blade during use. 
http://jfmetalsmith.com/
|
|
|
|
|
|
Gary Grzybek
Location: Stillwater N.J. Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 559
|
| Posted: Wed 18 Jan, 2006 9:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Thomas McDonald wrote: | | Jesse Frank wrote: | | I'm with Jeff on this one... |
It did strike me as a bent tang, as well !
Tangs could be very soft on some of these old swords and bends were probably common enough !
I'd imagine that some swords that appear straight & true now could also have suffered the same deal but were just repaired at some point ! Perhaps this one just never got fixed ?
Mac |
This is also my impression. A bend like that would make the weapon feel very strange in the hands. If this was intended, the owner must have been a little odd himself
Gary Grzybek
ARMA Northern N.J.
www.armastudy.org
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
This is a standard topic