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Michael A White
Location: Missouri, USA Joined: 07 Jun 2005
Posts: 26
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 Posted: Mon 09 Jan, 2006 6:26 pm Post subject: Short Sword/ buckler usage. |
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I have a quick question. Was there a fighting style in late medieval or Renaissance Europe for a short sword and buckler? And if so was it a military style or civilian?
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Alexander Ren
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| Posted: Mon 09 Jan, 2006 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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This book covers the subject. I do not yet own a copy so I do not know if it delves into the history of civilian vs military use or just discusses techniques, however many other forum members have highly recomended it.
http://www.myArmoury.com/books/item.php?ASIN=1891448439
Alex
"The more you sweat in practice, the less you bleed in battle."
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W. R. Reynolds
Location: Ramona, CA Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Mon 09 Jan, 2006 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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Michael,
The book that Alexander mentions is more early medieval. I belive that there is some stuff by Talhoffer in the period that you are looking for. I'm not positive but I believe most of the fechtbuchs were written for a civilain audience but it wouldn't surprise me to find that there was significant bleed over into the military as well.
Bill
"No matter who wins the rat race.......they are still a rat."
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Mon 09 Jan, 2006 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| W. R. Reynolds wrote: | Michael,
The book that Alexander mentions is more early medieval. I belive that there is some stuff by Talhoffer in the period that you are looking for. |
While I agree with this (the I.33 manuscript was from the late 13th century, and Talhoffer's from the 15th), I'll say that the later German medieval techniques that you are referencing are not drastically different. The differences probably have more to do with the particular style moreso than the time period. Plus Talhoffer is horribly undetailed for the uninitiated, unfortunately.
Michael,
In addition to the above references, in the Renaissance sword and buckler was still practiced. There are a number of Bolognese masters that taught sword and buckler. Achille Marozzo is a famous one in particular:
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/NewManuals/Marozzo/marozzo.htm
While the manuscript itself is most likely geared towards civilians, this style was most likely military as well. It isn't until later in the Renaissance where you start seeing a clear distinction between civilian and military styles.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Mon 09 Jan, 2006 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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Michael,
I think the response to your question also depends, quite significantly, upon what you mean by "short sword". Can you give us more detail to clarify what you mean? For instance, some people use "short sword" simply to refer to any singly handed "knightly" sword. Other people might only use it in the context of a cinquedea, or a gladius. And I'm sure there's other possible things one could be referring to when one says "short sword". As the responses of other forum members have indicated, there are works on the single handed sword and buckler, but these responses are presupposing that you mean an arming or riding, (or in the case of earlier in medieval history, what I call a "knightly"), sword. So what do you mean precisely?
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W. R. Reynolds
Location: Ramona, CA Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Mon 09 Jan, 2006 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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While most period illustrations show the use of the arming sword with buckler I actually WAS thinking short sword or perhaps a falchion. I've even seen period depictions for messer and buckler.
Bill
"No matter who wins the rat race.......they are still a rat."
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Stephen Hand
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| Posted: Mon 09 Jan, 2006 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you to Alex for mentioning my book Medieval Sword and Shield. I should add that a translation and facsimile of the original manuscript I.33 was published almost simultaneously with our book under the title The Medieval Art of Swordsmanship. I have also done further work on the system, changing some interpretations and adding new material. Thisadditional work was published as a paper in Spada II.
Just to nitpick, I wouldn't call 1300 early medieval and in the book we make a point of showing that the techniques described in I.33 were still being included in treatises in the 16th century.
I.33 is a beautiful system which I would like to see more people studying. It is also a true manual, which is rare among early fencing works. It's not just a discussion of fencing, but a book designed to teach the reader to fence according to the I.33 system.
Cheers
Stephen
Stephen Hand
Editor, Spada, Spada II
Author of English Swordsmanship, Medieval Sword and Shield
Stoccata School of Defence
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Michael A White
Location: Missouri, USA Joined: 07 Jun 2005
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Tue 10 Jan, 2006 8:05 pm Post subject: Wrong term. |
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Gentlemen,
Thank you for the replies. I am very new to this area of study. I used the wrong term in my question. I ment a fighting style that used a sword the size of a cinquedea or basilard used with a buckler.
Thank you,
Michael A. White
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Stephen Hand
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This is a standard topic