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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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 Posted: Sat 03 Jan, 2004 5:55 pm Post subject: Translation help (German) please -19th c. Riveted baskethilt |
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Could one of our German speaking friends translate this text for me !
Thanks, Mac
Lot Nr.1481
Korbschwert,
Schottland, Mitte 19.Jhdt. Schlanke zweischneidige Klinge (stellenweise narbig). Durchbrochenes eisernes Korbgefäß, konischer gekehlter Knauf. Lederbezogene Hilze mit Messingdrahtwicklung. Länge 98 cm.
 
http://www.hermann-historica.com/gb/index.htm
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
Last edited by Thomas McDonald on Sun 04 Jan, 2004 2:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Björn Hellqvist
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Sat 03 Jan, 2004 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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"Korbschwert,
Schottland, Mitte 19.Jhdt. Schlanke zweischneidige Klinge (stellenweise narbig). Durchbrochenes eisernes Korbgefäß, konischer gekehlter Knauf. Lederbezogene Hilze mit Messingdrahtwicklung. Länge 98 cm."
Basket-hilted sword,
Scotland, middle of the 19th century. Slim, double-edged blade (corroded spots). Pierced iron basket-hilt,
conical waisted (?) pommel. Leather-covered grip with brass thread in grooves (?). Length: 98 cm (that's 38.6" for you followers of that quaint system).
My sword site
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Sat 03 Jan, 2004 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you , Björn ..... much appreciated !
Slàinte, Mac
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
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Craig Johnson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sun 04 Jan, 2004 8:59 am Post subject: ?? Auction?? |
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Hello Mac
Is that from an auction? The photos have that look to them. The basket is interesting as far as it exhibits riveted construction. I would possibly place it outside of Scotland as far as origination point. A piece done for the market there or possibly as a decorative item. The 19th C stuff can be tough to nail down where and why, I have not come across one like this before. What do you think? Has Eljay commented?
Best Craig
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Manouchehr M.
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| Posted: Sun 04 Jan, 2004 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| Björn Hellqvist wrote: | "Korbschwert,
Schottland, Mitte 19.Jhdt. Schlanke zweischneidige Klinge (stellenweise narbig). Durchbrochenes eisernes Korbgefäß, konischer gekehlter Knauf. Lederbezogene Hilze mit Messingdrahtwicklung. Länge 98 cm."
Basket-hilted sword,
Scotland, middle of the 19th century. Slim, double-edged blade (corroded spots). Pierced iron basket-hilt,
conical waisted (?) pommel. Leather-covered grip with brass thread in grooves (?). Length: 98 cm (that's 38.6" for you followers of that quaint system). |
Mac and Björn
May I just come in. Good job Björn there are only two corrections necessary.
Scotland, mid 19 century, slim, double-edged blade (partially corroded). Open-space (pierced) basket-hilt, conical pommel with fullers (much like a blade with fullers, note that gekehlte Klinge is a fullered blade). Leather-covered hilt with brass wiring (on it). Length 98 cm
Best
Manoucher
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Sun 04 Jan, 2004 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: ?? Auction?? |
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| Craig Johnson wrote: | Hello Mac
Is that from an auction? The photos have that look to them. The basket is interesting as far as it exhibits riveted construction. I would possibly place it outside of Scotland as far as origination point. A piece done for the market there or possibly as a decorative item. The 19th C stuff can be tough to nail down where and why, I have not come across one like this before. What do you think? Has Eljay commented?
Best Craig |
Hi Craig
Yes, that sword was on Hermann Historica's auction page ( I posted the link at the bottom of my first post ).
It is an interesting piece ..... kind of has a crude look about it , with it's riveted bits!
I've not seen one quite like it before , but figured it was something from the Victorian age ? !
Not sure if Eljay has spotted this one or not , but I'd luv to hear his opinion on it ! Perhaps he'll jump in !
Mac
P.S. Manoucher ..... Thank you for the excellent German translation ! Much appreciated, my friend !
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
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Björn Hellqvist
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Sun 04 Jan, 2004 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Manoucher M. wrote: | May I just come in. Good job Björn there are only two corrections necessary.
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By all means! I'm glad my translation was as good as it was, as I learned German in school 25 years ago, and just had a small German-Swedish dictionary at hand. I knew I had seen "gekehlte" somewhere before, but I had forgot the meaning of the word.
My sword site
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E.B. Erickson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 05 Jan, 2004 4:46 am Post subject: |
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Hi everyone,
I think what we're looking at here is a basket made as a decorater (someone mentioned this already), possibly during the later Vic era. What I find interesting is that although the construction is rivetted (easy and quick construction), whoever made it went to the trouble of rolling that wristguard. This implies that the maker was at least aware of this feature on Scottish baskets, but I'm clueless as to why he didn't put more effort into making the rest of the hilt look more Scottish!
--ElJay
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Mon 05 Jan, 2004 6:27 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Eljay
Funny, It sometimes feels like we know more about the swords (thier makers, province etc.) in earlier centuries, than we do with the ones from the Victorian age ?
Mac
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
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Craig Johnson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 06 Jan, 2004 7:16 pm Post subject: I agree Mac |
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Evenin all
Good point about the guard Eljay. I think the Victorian era is a realy interesting period as the craftsmen of the period probably had an idea of all that it took to do the original and they were at the developemnt of the industrial age and thus could access the ability of manufactured parts, i.e. rivets to adjust to a desire of the customer to have it look right but be less expensive. Makes one wonde if a Victorian era bullitin board would be concerned with what was most authentic or what looked best on the wall????
The makers of these items are incredibly hard to track down. Mac remeber the mix of baskets I had and it lead us to Eljay and the insite into what realy makes a basket he gave us. Oh to be young and follish again, well at least we where a bit foolish I guess we where not that much younger than we are:-)
Keep well my friends a dram to you all.
Craig
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Wed 07 Jan, 2004 9:39 am Post subject: Re: I agree Mac |
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| Craig Johnson wrote: | Evenin all
The makers of these items are incredibly hard to track down. Mac remeber the mix of baskets I had and it lead us to Eljay and the insite into what realy makes a basket he gave us. Oh to be young and follish again, well at least we where a bit foolish I guess we where not that much younger than we are:-)
Keep well my friends a dram to you all. - Craig |
Hi Craig
The nineteenth century is indeed an interesting era in swordmaking !
Considering the many reproductions that were being made ,l'd luv to know more about who the top makers were ,in the day , and what approach they took , and why !
And yes, I remember those Mr. Perry baskethilts well ..... and still have regrets that I let them go !
But at least they are in good homes (ie: The Dave Wilson Armoury , and The Patrick Fitzmartin Arsenal Texas ) !
I believe you still own one of the more ornate pieces , right ? Did you determine who it's maker was , as I've forgotten ?
All things considered we did learn alot , and the fact that it did bring Eljay to us was a huge bonus indeed !
Rest Ye Well Mr. Perry , Mac
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Wed 07 Jan, 2004 10:50 am Post subject: |
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I posted this elsewhere ,in a thread about a recent Sotheby auction, but figured since were discussing 19th c. work I'd post it up here too !
Mac
From Sothebys.Com Arms & Armour auction page !
A SCOTTISH BASKET-HILTED BACKSWORD,FIRST HALF OF THE 19TH CENTURY
measurements note
the first: 76.5cm; 30 1/8in blade
With tapering blade cut with a narrow fulller over its back-edge, rudimentary iron hilt of flattened bars carrying alternating broad and narrow plates pierced with circles and triangles, short quillon, small bun-shaped pommel, and original carved basketwork hardwood grip studded with nails
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
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This is a standard topic