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Jakob Elbęk E. Pedersen




Location: Brabrand, Denmark
Joined: 21 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 1:45 pm    Post subject: Looking for info on this kettlehat/morion w. bevor         Reply with quote

Hello everyone

I found this picture of a very nice kettlehat/early morion with bevor on Arador.com - it is supposed to be a part of the collection at The Royal Museum of the Army and Military History in Brussels, Belgium.

Does anyone here have any information or additional photos on this helmet and the bevor? They look, for me, to be of italian origin - probably about 1470-1520 or thereabout.

The question is also whether this helmet and bevor was made to be used togeter in the first place - or if they have been put together to look good in the exhibit?

Does any of you know of similar pieces in existence?

I am considering to have both pieces copied, as they look to be both very attractive and practical.

Thank you in advance.


/Jakob



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Hisham Gaballa





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PostPosted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 2:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have seen and photographed a virtually identical late 15th century helmet in the Royal armouries museum in Leeds. I can't remember where it's from though.

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Jakob Elbęk E. Pedersen




Location: Brabrand, Denmark
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PostPosted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 3:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Hisham

Thats a very nice helmet - I really like the hammered out "appendix" on the top.

Any ideas about what the holes on the brim are for? It looks like rivet-holes for a leather or fabric lining.


/Jakob

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Chuck Russell




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PostPosted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 3:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jakob Elbęk E. Pedersen wrote:
Thanks Hisham

Thats a very nice helmet - I really like the hammered out "appendix" on the top.

Any ideas about what the holes on the brim are for? It looks like rivet-holes for a leather or fabric lining.


/Jakob


a lineing would be my guess. usually these helmets in teh 15thc are chapel de fers (spelling is way bad sorry) do some checks on burgundian 15th century. i think they can be found there in period artwork a lot.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 7:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jakob;

Don't know for certain if they were made together but they sure look that way.

If you notice the angle of the downturned brim and the angle of the top of the Bevor seem at least in this photograph to be very parallel to each other. Two pieces coming from different makers and just assembled for an exhibit in all probability would not have the same angles for helm and bevor.

Not impossible that pieces not made together might work together this well, but in that case and when they were made the owner of the helm might have shopped around or had made later a bevor that would be harmonious with the helm.

Just speculation on my part but I think a logical supposition.

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James Arlen Gillaspie
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PostPosted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 8:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Somewhere I have some late 15th c. German art that shows just such a helmet /bevor combination being worn by horsemen who are otherwise clad in so-called 'Gothic' armour. I haven't seen it since the move, though, which unfortunately means 'You'll just have to trust me".
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Jakob Elbęk E. Pedersen




Location: Brabrand, Denmark
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PostPosted: Mon 12 Dec, 2005 1:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James Arlen Gillaspie wrote:
'You'll just have to trust me".


I'll do that then Big Grin

But please post it if you find it.

I am planning the include the helmet and bevor in an English 1460-80 harness I'm putting together. The harness will - when finished - consist of (from the inside out); a thin long-sleeved aketon with a high collar, a short-sleeved riveted shirt of maille, a thick sleeve-less gambeson and a low plackart. The arms wil be covered with a pair og simple milanese floating arms, without pauldron and the legs wil be covered with a simple milanese leg-armour, without greaves. For the head it will either be a t-face barbute (though a little too early for such a harness) with a riveted maille-standard to protect the neck or a kettlehat/morion with a bevor like the one shown above. I guess I'll be going with the latter. For the hands I will get a pair of late milanese articulated mittens.


/Jakob

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Wolfgang Armbruster





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PostPosted: Mon 12 Dec, 2005 2:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That sounds like a great kit! Please post pictures when it's done Happy

I really like these Bevor / Iron hat or Sallet combinations. There's probably no better way to protect your throat and neck than with a Bevor (from my point of view).
Having said that it makes me wonder why people eventually stopped using Bevors. Aren't helmets like Armets less comfortable to wear? Perhaps it was just a fashion-thing.
If anyone could answer this question, please do so Happy
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Hisham Gaballa





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PostPosted: Mon 12 Dec, 2005 1:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wolfgang Armbruster wrote:
That sounds like a great kit! Please post pictures when it's done Happy

I really like these Bevor / Iron hat or Sallet combinations. There's probably no better way to protect your throat and neck than with a Bevor (from my point of view).
Having said that it makes me wonder why people eventually stopped using Bevors. Aren't helmets like Armets less comfortable to wear? Perhaps it was just a fashion-thing.
If anyone could answer this question, please do so Happy


I actually i have heard that bevors can be quite restrictive and limit head movement, which is why sallets were often worn alone. Armets however do allow a lot more movement. Happy

If you want restrictive though, have a look at this kettle-hat and bevor combo, also in the Royal Armouries: Big Grin



Best armour has some replica helmets which are similar:
http://www.bestarmour.com/zbroje3.htm
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Aaron Schnatterly




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PostPosted: Mon 12 Dec, 2005 1:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hisham Gaballa wrote:
I actually i have heard that bevors can be quite restrictive and limit head movement, which is why sallets were often worn alone. Armets however do allow a lot more movement. Happy

It's my understanding that this is the case, and gets significantly more so when the bevor is stapled to the breastplate, as was common in German high goth pieces. Armets and other forms of close helm that have a separate gorget but full facial encasement will be easier to move in, but more difficult to breath in with the visor closed.
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Mark Mattimore




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 9:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

While on the topic of restrictive bevors, I have been researching the various styles and designs of late 15th century gothic armor and what's currently available in the repo market. I have run across a couple of examples of bevors that have full gorget plates all the way around, and not just a strap in the back. See the attached pics for examples. However, I can find absolutely no historical precedent for this design. Is anyone aware of this type of bevor actually being used in history or is it just a modern interpretation?


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Jakob Elbęk E. Pedersen




Location: Brabrand, Denmark
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PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 4:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you for all your answers.

Yes, unfortunally a bevor limits the movement quite a bit - but it also opens up for using certain long-sword techniques, which would otherwice be way too dangerous. I wouldn't like to take blows or plunges at the neck or throat without wearing a bevor and a deep kettlehat or visored sallet.

As to the bevors with full gorgets; we had a discussion about them in the club where i train and teach german long-sword fencing. I have spent some time looking for any proof that they vere used in the late 15. c. - as so far I haven't been able to finde any. So I guess they veren't used.

If everything goes as planned I will have my kit finished around the end of 2006 - I will be sure to post some pictures then.

I am currently waiting for a plackart (http://www.hodgkiss.armour.btinternet.co.uk/plackart.jpg from Martin Hodgkiss (http://www.hodgkiss.armour.btinternet.co.uk/).

To start with i might go with a lighter configuration, consisting of a long-sleeved aketon, a plackart, jackchains (http://tomala.tron.yupe.net/of_d/plytowka/rece_p/rece4_1.jpg), milanese mittens and a kettlehat/early morion with a matching bevor.


/Jakob

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Mark Mattimore




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PostPosted: Wed 14 Dec, 2005 9:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jakob Elbęk E. Pedersen wrote:
To start with i might go with a lighter configuration, consisting of a long-sleeved aketon, a plackart, jackchains (http://tomala.tron.yupe.net/of_d/plytowka/rece_p/rece4_1.jpg), milanese mittens and a kettlehat/early morion with a matching bevor./Jakob


Jackchains? Eek! That's a new one to me. They look kind of cool in that photo. Are there historical examples of these?

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Aaron Schnatterly




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PostPosted: Wed 14 Dec, 2005 9:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark Mattimore wrote:
Jackchains? Eek! That's a new one to me. They look kind of cool in that photo. Are there historical examples of these?

They're discussed in this thread: "Jackchains".

I'm surprised so few people were aware of these... pretty neat, if you ask me.
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Mark Mattimore




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PostPosted: Wed 14 Dec, 2005 11:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Aaron Schnatterly wrote:
Mark Mattimore wrote:
Jackchains? Eek! That's a new one to me. They look kind of cool in that photo. Are there historical examples of these?

They're discussed in this thread: "Jackchains".

I'm surprised so few people were aware of these... pretty neat, if you ask me.


Thanks Aaron. How did I miss that Question

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Jakob Elbęk E. Pedersen




Location: Brabrand, Denmark
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PostPosted: Wed 14 Dec, 2005 11:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I just found this picture of a deep kettlehat, of a different design, with a very high bevor and eyeslits, supposedly from Castle Churburg, around 1460.

I have heard about a Dutch one, of a rather similar design, but with a twisted top.


/Jakob



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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Wed 14 Dec, 2005 1:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jakob Elbęk E. Pedersen wrote:
I just found this picture of a deep kettlehat, of a different design, with a very high bevor and eyeslits, supposedly from Castle Churburg, around 1460.

I have heard about a Dutch one, of a rather similar design, but with a twisted top.


/Jakob



Very much like my Valentine Armouries Eyeslot Kettle hat with the main difference that mine only bulges very lightly compared to this Dutch one: Which I prefer as these sort of unfortunately remind me of a duck bill. ( Sort of can't get Daffy Duck out of my head when I see one like this. Razz Eek! Laughing Out Loud )

The level of protection would have been very good but the top of the bevor might not seem so high if the helm was on somebody's head rather than just sitting on top of the bevor.

One thing about these Eyeslot deep Kettle hats is that one can tilt then back for better vision and one can tilt the head forward to minimize the gap between the top of the bevor and rim of helm: Sort of could be compared to " Turtleling " ones head back under the shell in a reflex action to avoid a blow or a missile.

With most kettle hats bending the head forward can give temporary coverage to the face at need: Sort of like having a movable visor that one doesn't have to move with the hand to increase protection or move to get better vision and / or air.

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Christian Henry Tobler




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PostPosted: Wed 14 Dec, 2005 2:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One source for a rider such as James Gillaspie describes is the c. 1470 Paulus Kal Fechtbuch, which has several riders wearing kettle helms and bevors with gothic harnesses.

This fencing work is the subject of my next book, "In Service of the Duke: Paulus Kal's Treatise on Swordsmanship and Martial Arts." This should be out in the first half of 2006.

All the best,

CHT

Christian Henry Tobler
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Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Wolfgang Armbruster





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PostPosted: Wed 14 Dec, 2005 3:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian Henry Tobler wrote:
One source for a rider such as James Gillaspie describes is the c. 1470 Paulus Kal Fechtbuch, which has several riders wearing kettle helms and bevors with gothic harnesses.

This fencing work is the subject of my next book, "In Service of the Duke: Paulus Kal's Treatise on Swordsmanship and Martial Arts." This should be out in the first half of 2006.

All the best,

CHT


I recently had the pleasure of being able to take a look at the original Paulus Kal Fechtbuch. It was on display at the exhibition "500 years of Pfalz-Neuburg" in Neuburg, Bavaria.
Since it was behind glass I only saw two pages. On both pages riders were depicted wearing exactly the harness-configuration you mentioned. The drawings were in colour and way above the Talhoffer ones in quality.
I'm looking forward to read your book, Mr. Tobler Happy

The exhibition also featured emperor Maximilian's transitional late-gothic/early renaissance harness. It still has the bevor, but the renaissance influence with it's rounded surfaces is already visible.

A few pics (couldn't find larger ones yet):

Harness made by Lorenz Helmschmied, Konrad Seusenhofer, Meister H, Meister der Globusmarke 1495-1511



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Jakob Elbęk E. Pedersen




Location: Brabrand, Denmark
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PostPosted: Thu 15 Dec, 2005 2:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I haven' t been able to find pictures of the original dutch kettlehat with twisted top. But here is a picture of a very nice reproduction from www.whiterosearmoury.co.uk. I really like the gilded decorative balls on the top.


/Jakob



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