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Aaron Schnatterly
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 Posted: Sat 10 Dec, 2005 6:05 pm Post subject: Templar kit |
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Alright, all... since I've changed my avatar, I've been bombarded with requests to see the kit, via open forums, PMs, emails, and even phone calls. I give, I give! 
Best I can do here is put up these in-progress photos for the time being... the kit is more or less complete now, but I have no current photos. I'll try to remedy that in a week or so. Until then, here are a couple of pics (larger ones are available in my photo album on myArmoury), and some further explanation below...
 
Nearly everything I have on was made by me... exceptions are the Albion Next Gen Ritter, the boots (from Revival Clothing - same ones Patrick Kelly has in his kit), the belt with the brass fittings (which is from Historic Enterprises, and is a couple of hundred years later, actually), and the helm, which is the Kingdom of Heaven war hat from MRL.
Now, the surcoat has a proper red cross on the left breast, there is a hooded cloak, also with the cross, the scabbard now has a chape (as can be seen here: Ritter Scabbard finished!), and the coif has been reworked a bit and closed in around the neck and face.
My go-by for this kit was the illustration set from the Osprey Templar book.
Eventual changes for this kit will be to hand forge a new buckle for the Ritter's scabbard, and to hand forge fittings and make a period-appropriate belt to replace the out-of-period one. I may eventually hammer out a kettle helm or an early barrel helm to replace the KoH one... I would also like to hammer out a lance head and mount it, but that'll be way down the line.
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Steve Grisetti
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| Posted: Sat 10 Dec, 2005 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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Very cool, Aaron! What factors led you to select the KOH war hat over alternatives?
"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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Addison C. de Lisle
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| Posted: Sat 10 Dec, 2005 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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That's pretty cool! Did you add insignia onto the surcoat, and get a shield?
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Sat 10 Dec, 2005 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Steve Grisetti wrote: | | Very cool, Aaron! What factors led you to select the KOH war hat over alternatives? |
Thanks, Steve!
There were actually a number of factors... I had initially intended upon a later kit than I have portrayed here, which would have had a different coif design (which I also have finished) which really closes in the head a good bit, coming up over the chin and lower face, but doesn't have the ventail like the ones seen in KoH do. This would be put with one of the full-face, half-barrel helms like the one pictured here:
That coif style won't slip back over the head and rest around the neck, though, so it is a bit confining. Add to that the helm, and it's downright unfriendly for public interaction.
Another issue was one of comfort - the helm pictured above is tight - I'll be making another one eventually...
A third was actually availability. The helm is actually not mine! I borrowed it, due to the issues above. I do like it, though, for this purpose, though I personally don't feel it'd do well enough for actual reenactment or sparring.
Fourth - I honestly haven't found another version that I care much for, that I could afford/get in time for the closing weekend of TRF.
I had considered buying one, but I spent my money on one of these instead, figuring I could do some cool project work with it:
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Sat 10 Dec, 2005 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Addison C. de Lisle wrote: | | That's pretty cool! Did you add insignia onto the surcoat, and get a shield? |
I hand-stitched a red cross on the left breast of both the surcoat and of the hooded cloak (that has since been added).
Thanks, Addison! Told you, kits are cool to build.  This is one of a few I personally have in the works right now...
I did make a shield, too... and I have a spear to go with this kit as well. Oh, and I made a kidney pouch for it... tucking your wallet inside your braies isn't exactly what I call "fun".
Making is a LOT less expensive than buying... if you are willing to put in the time and you already have the tools.
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Anton de Vries
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 2:10 am Post subject: |
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That looks great Aaron.
I do notice a few details here and there though: mail texture and color looks a bit strange though that may be caused by the picture. It looks like stainless butted mail. Not *really* a problem though, as riveted mail is pretty rare, at least on my side of the pond.
The other issue can be categorised as 'gut feeling', as I don't believe there's actual proof for it....it's all *too* brand new, shiny and clean.
It's okayish for a single person, but when a group looks that new and clean it just plain HURTS my eyes.
Rolling back and forth on the lawn should fix that.
I fixed (at least partially) the 'other problem' as I'm aware that you're not really wearing a pink dress. 
Great kit.
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Hisham Gaballa
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 2:56 am Post subject: |
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Very nice, I'm impressed.
I take it the look you are aiming for is a Templar circa 1250 AD? I think you made the right choice with the kettle-hat, it's my understanding that when in hotter climes, many western european warriors prefrred open helmets like the kettle-hat. Oakshott in his "Archaeology of Weapons" quotes Joinville on the subject saying "...He persuaded king Louis to remove his helm, lending him his own kettle-hat so that the king could get some fresh air (avoir le vent)". One thing though, wouldn't mail "mittens" have been more common by this period? 
I'm looking forward to seeing the bigger photos.
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Jonathan Blair
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 3:14 am Post subject: |
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I like it. Great job on the kit.
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." - The Lord Jesus Christ, from The Gospel According to Saint Matthew, chapter x, verse 34, Authorized Version of 1611
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Folkert van Wijk
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 3:27 am Post subject: |
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| Aaron Schnatterly wrote: | I hand-stitched a red cross on the left breast of both the surcoat and of the hooded cloak (that has since been added).
I did make a shield, too... and I have a spear to go with this kit as well. Oh, and I made a kidney pouch for it... tucking your wallet inside your braies isn't exactly what I call "fun".
Making is a LOT less expensive than buying... if you are willing to put in the time and you already have the tools. |
Hi Aaron
I am clad that there are other (cool) guys around that do there stitching an sowing them selfs.
I am also working on making my clothes myself. It gives a good understanding of what it takes. especially the hand-stitching gives a good period feel... And not to forget working with leather (and smelling) , gives a nice traditional quality to the times spend with it.
After all it puts you back to earth and so ads to a stable (mentally and physically platform) from where you can do your martial arts in a more balanced way..
Surtenly a recommendation for those who are more the buying kind.
A good sword will only be sharp, in the hands of a wise man…
I am great fan of everything Celtic BC, including there weapons.
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 6:20 am Post subject: |
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| Anton de Vries wrote: | That looks great Aaron.
I do notice a few details here and there though: mail texture and color looks a bit strange though that may be caused by the picture. It looks like stainless butted mail. Not *really* a problem though, as riveted mail is pretty rare, at least on my side of the pond. |
Thanks, Anton! In this case, the maille is 14g 3/8 ID butted - not stainless, but still galvanized at this point, and really clean. I plan to follow suit with what Patrick Kelly did with his, and give it a dip in the old muriatic acid. That will bring it down to just the plain steel. Once I do that, I'll have to dilute/neutralize the acid, and treat it with a fine coat of oil or burnish it. I'm leaning towards burnishing the heck out of it by tumbling it for a couple of days in sandblasting material. Leave it sit for a few months in an inside environment, and it will pick up that nice dark grey color that I am looking for. In any future work (like my 11th C and Viking kits - still in the planning stages), all maille will be 16g riveted. Yes, it's a lot of work. Yes, I'll do it myself (at least, I'll modify existing stuff). It looks and feels better, and is also a lot lighter. This kit will pretty much stay on a mannequin from here out...
| Anton de Vries wrote: | The other issue can be categorised as 'gut feeling', as I don't believe there's actual proof for it....it's all *too* brand new, shiny and clean.
It's okayish for a single person, but when a group looks that new and clean it just plain HURTS my eyes.
Rolling back and forth on the lawn should fix that. |
Use and abuse will take care of that. Intentionally aging any of this stuff never results in a really believeable outcome. It's like taking sandpaper to a new pair of jeans to break them in...
| Anton de Vries wrote: | I fixed (at least partially) the 'other problem' as I'm aware that you're not really wearing a pink dress.
Great kit. |
Thanks for adjusting the photos - this is actually a lot closer to the real appearance of the kit. Seems the camera was shooting a bit "hot" - we didn't make any adjustments in the settings, and I think it was still set for inside pics.
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 6:49 am Post subject: |
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| Hisham Gaballa wrote: | Very nice, I'm impressed.
I take it the look you are aiming for is a Templar circa 1250 AD? |
Thanks, Hisham! Yes, mid-13th C is dead on for what I was looking to accomplish. I really wanted to try to fill in some of the "blank canvas" in my experiences with kits and stepping into the role. I've done Hastings, 1066, I've done earlier Vikings, and I have done 14th-16th C support stuff. You can expect to see me working on kits for 1350ish, 1475 German High Gothic, and 1550 English Tourney over the next few years, as well as resurrecting my work on the late 11th C Norman.
I realize I'm running off on a bit of a tangent, but here's a little something about how and why I collect... Swords are cool - this we all know - but they are just a small piece of the whole thing for me. I like to understand how and why things were the way they were. I love the experience of learning how the weapons were used (so I study WMA), but I also am very interested in how they lived OFF the field of battle. Spending the weekend in a period encampment, with as close to what they had available as I can manage, is really awesome, and I STRONGLY suggest it to anyone. Set up a tent akin to the Gokstad find one, sleep in a slat bed. Eat recipes from that time - wash it down with mead you made. Learn some of the fundamentals of crafts of the time - hammer some metal, work and tool some leather, carve some wood or stone. This is how you understand, rather than accumulate facts. It grounds you, and it puts an intense pride in your accomplishments, too. It isn't for everyone, but if you have the slightest interest, tear that wide open and go for it!
| Hisham Gaballa wrote: | | I think you made the right choice with the kettle-hat, it's my understanding that when in hotter climes, many western european warriors prefrred open helmets like the kettle-hat. Oakshott in his "Archaeology of Weapons" quotes Joinville on the subject saying "...He persuaded king Louis to remove his helm, lending him his own kettle-hat so that the king could get some fresh air (avoir le vent)". |
I seriously dig the kettle helm. Visibility is great, protection is pretty good, comfort is pretty good, and yes, for goodness sake, you can breathe. Making my own kettle helm is pretty high on my projects list - and probably a topic for another "in progress" thread. Tools are all coming together, and I have shop space, so I'm close...
| Hisham Gaballa wrote: | | One thing though, wouldn't mail "mittens" have been more common by this period? |
Yes... attached mufflers would have been. They are an obnoxious pain in the butt to deal with, so I'll deal with that concession - I'll either make some mittens that I can lace on, or some that I can wear separately. Too much flopping around when you slip your hands out.
| Hisham Gaballa wrote: | | I'm looking forward to seeing the bigger photos. |
Some bigger photos can be found in my "Armour" photo album - click on the thumbnails to get bigger pics, then click on the pics to get medium sized ones. If you PM me or email me with an email address, I'll send you full-size high-res pics - about 1.5MB each.
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 7:12 am Post subject: |
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Looking good, man.
Very nice Mid 13th kit...
looks a bit like... mine, really :P
One note; put the aventail inside the surcote... The period art shows that they where worn like that.
A shield and spear would round out the kit nicely. Alternately, a two handed spear and a buckler to go with the sword.
Daggers are always nice, too... Very handy for close defence.
Other than that, you are pretty much there.
Congrats!
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| Folkert van Wijk wrote: | | I am clad that there are other (cool) guys around that do there stitching an sowing them selfs. |
Thanks for the support, Folkert!
| Folkert van Wijk wrote: | I am also working on making my clothes myself. It gives a good understanding of what it takes. especially the hand-stitching gives a good period feel... And not to forget working with leather (and smelling) , gives a nice traditional quality to the times spend with it.
After all it puts you back to earth and so ads to a stable (mentally and physically platform) from where you can do your martial arts in a more balanced way..
Surtenly a recommendation for those who are more the buying kind. |
Agreed 100%. It also gives you a sense of pride and accomplishment. Anyone can just go and buy all of this stuff, but it never becomes personal, appreciated fully. I support and salute your efforts, Folkert! I'm looking forward to seeing some pics!
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| Elling Polden wrote: | Looking good, man.
Very nice Mid 13th kit...
looks a bit like... mine, really :P |
At least I'm in good company! Thanks, Elling!
| Elling Polden wrote: | | One note; put the aventail inside the surcote... The period art shows that they where worn like that. |
I had to loosen it up a bit in the mantle, as well as lengthen it slightly in the neck to accomodate this... it was tight otherwise, and I couldn't turn my head. It's fixed up better, now...
| Elling Polden wrote: | | A shield and spear would round out the kit nicely. Alternately, a two handed spear and a buckler to go with the sword. |
I have both a shield and a spear already... Still need to strap the shield, and I want to put a pendant on the spear.
| Elling Polden wrote: | Daggers are always nice, too... Very handy for close defence.
Other than that, you are pretty much there.
Congrats! |
Dagger is coming eventually.... I'll forge and hilt one myself. I haven't found one on the market that I want for this kit...
I appreciate the thoughts, advice, and validation!
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Anton de Vries
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Aaron Schnatterly wrote: | | [I plan to follow suit with what Patrick Kelly did with his |
Patrick Kelly's hauberk sure does look good doesn't it? It would even look great if it had an integral coif.
I wanted to buy one of those for myself but spending money isn't an option right now as I lost a large part of my income.
I hope to fix that soon. I really really really need at least one more sword and a partial kit right NOW.
| Aaron Schnatterly wrote: | | Use and abuse will take care of that. Intentionally aging any of this stuff never results in a really believeable outcome. It's like taking sandpaper to a new pair of jeans to break them in... |
You are right of course.
| Aaron Schnatterly wrote: | | Thanks for adjusting the photos - this is actually a lot closer to the real appearance of the kit. Seems the camera was shooting a bit "hot" - we didn't make any adjustments in the settings, and I think it was still set for inside pics. |
Click for fullsize versions (someone good at this should be able to really fix it):
 
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Anton de Vries wrote: | | Patrick Kelly's hauberk sure does look good doesn't it? It would even look great if it had an integral coif. |
One of the best I've seen... out of a bundle. I'll look to that possibly late next year or into '07.
| Anton de Vries wrote: | I wanted to buy one of those for myself but spending money isn't an option right now as I lost a large part of my income.
I hope to fix that soon. I really really really need at least one more sword and a partial kit right NOW. |
I hope to see that happen... any thoughts on what/when (for your kit)?
| Anton de Vries wrote: | | Click for fullsize versions (someone good at this should be able to really fix it) |
You so kick ass, brother. Thanks!
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Chuck Russell
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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nice!
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Anton wrote: | Patrick Kelly's hauberk sure does look good doesn't it? It would even look great if it had an integral coif.
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Thank you, and please stop picking on my coif people!
Right now I'm using this separate coif because of versatility. I'd like to be able to use these mail bits in other interpretations, like what Aaron's done here. However, somewhere down the road I'm pretty sure I'll add an integeral coif to this hauberk. I'm of the opinion that both were in use during the 11th century. After all, the separate coif was known and in use long before the 11th century. The Bayeux Tapestry itself clearly shows some figures with integeral coifs, others that don't have a coif at all, and others that aren't clear on what's being used. Still, in order to be classically "Norman" I think an integeral coif is needed. My real sticking point is what to do with the ventail since I absolutely hate that ridiculous "bib" thing.
Besides, adding an integeral coif to this hauberk would give me an excuse to buy or make another one. A long-sleeved hauberk using alternating rows of riveted and solid rings sounds like an interesting project. Hmmmmmmmm.
Right now a gambeson is higher on the priority list.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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Aaron,
I love poto-great helms like this one from Medieval Reproductions.
Something like this would look great with this kit.
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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My kit, as per august.
New features will be better adjusted arms and coif, and mitens...
And a set of shields, from small heather to kite...
Attachment: 99.27 KB
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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