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Addison C. de Lisle
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 Posted: Sat 10 Dec, 2005 3:40 pm Post subject: "Viking" Kit |
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Hello everyone! I am fairly new to these boards, and thus would like some help with a planned project of mine.
I am interested in making a "Viking" (for lack of a better word) armor kit, but am unsure exactly which parts would be appropriate. I am certain, however, that I want to get a Gjermundbu-Style helm (spectacle helm, located here (the one with the aventail). However, I am not sure what would be appropriate for gauntlets, neck, leg, and shoulder armor. I was thinking splinted greaves and vambraces, and a mail shirt, with spauldrons and perhaps a ringmaille vest (from Mercenaries' Tailor). But I'm not sure whether that's accurate.
I also wasn't sure what to wear under the chainmaille, and what to protect my legs and feet with.
Thank you for your input.
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sat 10 Dec, 2005 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Addison, take a look at the thread "New photos of my hauberk". What Patrick Kelly has on minus teardrop shield/add some type of round shield will get you late viking, sub the Gjermundbu for the conicle helm( Patrick has a great Gjermundbu helmet he got from Medieval Reproductions that you should have a look at if your interested in the type) and you get an earlier look. Splinted defenses for the limbs at this time , that i'm aware of, are limited to possible use in the east(Byzantine) maybe by members of the Varangian(sp)guard. Maille , helmet and shield were the gear for the most part at this time that as far as I know. There are some other folks here with more expertise that i'm sure can add more details for you.
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Sat 10 Dec, 2005 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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Addison, I'm glad to see yet another enthusiastic kit-builder. I'm sure you'll get all the help you want, maybe more! 
Could you help narrow things down a bit? Here are a couple of questions that may help us help you.
You mention "Viking", but didn't mention it with any conviction, so maybe you could help pin down a time/place? This could be migration/Vendel, Viking, Norman, Saxon...
What do you want the kit for? Active reenactment vs. display vs. fantasy all have different elements that could be addressed.
How historically accurate do you want?
The reason I'm kicking this back is the bits of armour you mention are from a significantly varied period, and some are anachronistic, supositive, or regional.
One really good reference I can point you to is Patrick Kelly's kit: Patrick's 11th C kit. His is one of the 5 best I've ever seen (out of literally 100+). Also, check out Patrick Kelly's Collection for more nice pieces from this period, including a great version of that helm done by Peter Fuller of Medieval Reproductions. If you want some earlier pieces than Patrick has in his collection, check out Nathan Bell's Collection.
We'll definitely help you get there...
EDIT: Looks like Allan posted some of the same thoughts while I was composing my post...
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Addison C. de Lisle
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| Posted: Sat 10 Dec, 2005 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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Well, off we go on a merry adventure... 
I used "Viking" because I'm not sure myself of which period I'm after. I like the spectacle helm, as I mentioned earlier, which is in part my inspiration for the whole thing. As for why I want the kit...hmm, about the same reason I bought a sword...
I don't do reenactment (yet), but I would like a kit "just to have" until then. In addition, I like the medieval period (almost a given, as I'm posting here in the first place). As for historical accuracy, I would like it to be reasonably accurate, definately functional, but I am willing to make a few concessions...
I looked at Patricks' kit, and I think it looks great! He need a cape though...
I've been through the Medieval Reproductions page before, and I really like the helm, but at the moment $500.00 is a bit out of my price range. At Viking Shield I found one that I liked for $150.00, but I'm not sure of it's accuracy.
The spaulders I am pretty sure belong in the period of full-plate, but I wanted to check, and I like how they look.
I can't currently afford much of this right now, I'm just planning out what to save for. Thanks for your help!
Oh, and I plan to get the Albion NG Clontarf next summer as well, as the Crecy wouldn't be quite the right time period...
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John Cooksey
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| Posted: Sat 10 Dec, 2005 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, I think splinted leg defenses and gauntlet cuffs would be perfectly appropriate for the period, if you are going for generalized "Dark Ages Germanic".
This from Oakeshott's "Archaeology of Weapons": the Valsgarde grave finds had splints with signs of leather attachment into greaves and cuffs, and pictorial representations of splinted limb defenses on helmets from Sutton Hoo, Uppsala, and Vendel.
For the neck, I'd recommend a full aventail or veil of mail. These are found from Turkestan to Scandinavia during the "Dark Ages".
In my opinion, there is no one style of "Viking kit". Any given "Viking" (or Teuton of the 7 centuries leading up to the Viking period) could have pieces of kit from anywhere in the Mediterranean or Western Asia. They traveled, raided, and traded throughout Europe, the entire Mediterranean Basin, and the Black Sea basin.
I'd probably stick with a hauberk as my torso defense, but there is nothing to say that you couldn't later (cataphract style) other armor types over it, such as leather, scale, or even lamellar.
I guess it all depends on how "Viking" you want to be versus how much "Dark Age warrior" . . . . . .
I didn't surrender, but they took my horse and made him surrender.
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Addison C. de Lisle
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| Posted: Sat 10 Dec, 2005 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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"Dark Age Warrior" sounds more like what I'm thinking, I just used the word "Viking" because the spectacle helm is from that area. Speaking of which, I believe that the helm was found in a grave. However, thinking about it, I'm pretty sure that the "Vikings" burned their dead. Would I be correct in assuming that it's Anglo-Saxon, or from a period after Christianity instituted burial rather than cremation?
I wish I had some of the textual resources to help me with my research, but alas, I do not. You guys will have to do! 
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Sat 10 Dec, 2005 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Addison C. de Lisle wrote: | | Well, off we go on a merry adventure... |
You'll have a blast with it, too... it's a TON of fun to build a kit and step into his shoes.
| Addison wrote: | I used "Viking" because I'm not sure myself of which period I'm after...
... I don't do reenactment (yet), but I would like a kit "just to have" until then. In addition, I like the medieval period (almost a given, as I'm posting here in the first place). As for historical accuracy, I would like it to be reasonably accurate, definately functional, but I am willing to make a few concessions... |
Most reenactment groups make a good effort at being accurate. If you are looking to build any kit, it's better to figure out your focus first, then work little by little to develop it. Nothing says you can't do multiple kits, but that's extremely resource-intensive - time, space, funds... In the case of Patrick's kit, he can easily do Viking, Norman, or Saxon with some substitution of some pieces. I understand being willing to make a concession here and there... making wise ones will save you in the long run.
| Addison wrote: | | I've been through the Medieval Reproductions page before, and I really like the helm, but at the moment $500.00 is a bit out of my price range. At Viking Shield I found one that I liked for $150.00, but I'm not sure of it's accuracy. |
There are a lot of options for bits of your kit. Prices, quality, durability, accuracy can vary a lot. Some (not all) of the off-the-shelf armours are supposed "one size fits all" pieces - funny how "all" never includes me.
| Addison wrote: | | The spaulders I am pretty sure belong in the period of full-plate, but I wanted to check, and I like how they look. |
Spaulders/pauldrons do show up much later than the spectacle helm did... even aillettes are a good deal later. I'll have to agree with you - they do look good - feel good, too... but I'm more of a tin-can man, rather than a maille guy. Spaulders come in with transitional armour, with the fuller pauldrons developing with what I believe you are referring to as full plate.
| Addison wrote: | I can't currently afford much of this right now, I'm just planning out what to save for. Thanks for your help!
Oh, and I plan to get the Albion NG Clontarf next summer as well, as the Crecy wouldn't be quite the right time period... |
A kit is definitely a hobby investment. They can be managed, though... Ask anyone who has put a hard-core kit together, and they'll almost invariably tell you it's been over time - sometimes long periods of time - that they have built it. Another thing that they'll tell you - the blasted things are never once-and-for-all finished - there is ALWAYS something else you want to do with/to it. One thing to consider is if you can manage to build any of this stuff yourself, or if you know anyone who can. Period clothing isn't obnoxious, and for this specific period, a simple tunic and pants is actually pretty easy to make. You could weave your own maille should you be so inclined (and industrious/persistant) and save some money.
The Crecy would be well out of this time period - you are correct. The Clontarf, Vinland, and Gotland are being discontinued. I don't know how many of each happen to be left. That doesn't leave you out in the cold - they could still be around then, Albion will take a $300 downpayment and you have like 6 months to settle the balance (I think that's how it works, anyway - a call to Mike would confirm this), they occasionally pop up in the marketplace second hand, and there are alternatives, such as the Gaddhjalt, or some of the Type X's, not to mention the other Viking/Anglo-Saxon pieces.
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John Cooksey
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| Posted: Sat 10 Dec, 2005 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Addison C. de Lisle wrote: | "Dark Age Warrior" sounds more like what I'm thinking, I just used the word "Viking" because the spectacle helm is from that area. Speaking of which, I believe that the helm was found in a grave. However, thinking about it, I'm pretty sure that the "Vikings" burned their dead. Would I be correct in assuming that it's Anglo-Saxon, or from a period after Christianity instituted burial rather than cremation?
I wish I had some of the textual resources to help me with my research, but alas, I do not. You guys will have to do! |
It's time to buy some books, man! :-)
I find that one can never have enough books . . . . .
That's one thing that I consistently over-spend on.
And my library will never, ever be complete.
Libraries are great, too . . . especially University libraries. If they don't have it, they can usually get it.
Some Germans did burn their dead, others buried them.
It varied from time to time and place to place.
They buried chieftains long before many of them were ever Christian.
The Sagas are full of people robbing graves (barrows) for arms and armor and treasures of various sorts
I didn't surrender, but they took my horse and made him surrender.
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Addison C. de Lisle
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| Posted: Sat 10 Dec, 2005 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Aaron Schnatterly wrote: |
There are a lot of options for bits of your kit. Prices, quality, durability, accuracy can vary a lot. Some (not all) of the off-the-shelf armours are supposed "one size fits all" pieces - funny how "all" never includes me.
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Hahaha, I can sympathize with that! Being 6'3" isn't exactly conducive to "one size fits all"...
However, they did mention the cicumference of the helm, and it appears to be a good fit. It also said it comes with a leather liner, which is nice...but again I'm not sure of the quality of the helm. I would go with the Mercenaries' Tailor helm, but I don't like how the spectacles are attached.
As for making the maille myself, I have no problem sitting down and doing it, but I just don't have the time or space. A metal studio is in progress and should be set up in a few months. I am also taking a knife-making course in April, so I may be able to get enough metal-smithing skill to make the spaulders myself, as they are pretty simplistic-looking. I have a few thousand Scale mail pieces here at home (from theringlord.com), but they use split rings rather than a weave to hold them in place, and as a result they are a pain to assemble, and excessively time-consuming...
When I get the metal studio finished, perhaps I can make my own, more accurate, scales and have my sister weave them for me...she likes to sew...
Books are great, I have a large personal library, but it mostly consists of fantasy/historical fiction at the moment. But Christmas is coming... 
Oh, and by "full-plate" I mean the tin-can set-up. I like that too, but I thought I'd start with something less expensive...and that looks decent without having all the pieces at once.
EDIT:
What about lamellar?
http://www.armourarchive.org/patterns/lamellar_templarbob/
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John Cooksey
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| Posted: Sat 10 Dec, 2005 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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What about it? :-)
It certainly existed in the long period of the "Dark Ages" and "the Viking era", if not much in Western Europe.
The Goths used some, and the Varangians and Rus were certainly quite thoroughly exposed to it.
There actually used to be quite a heavy trade in arms and armor between the Baltic and the Steppe, via the Volga trade route and others. The Khazars used to raid Scandinavian barrows for swords, and the Rus raided their kurgans for the same. The grass is always greener, or "the steel is always finer" you know . . . . . . .
I didn't surrender, but they took my horse and made him surrender.
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Sat 10 Dec, 2005 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Addison C. de Lisle wrote: | | Oh, and by "full-plate" I mean the tin-can set-up. I like that too, but I thought I'd start with something less expensive...and that looks decent without having all the pieces at once. |
When you mentioned "full-plate", I thought of the plate harnesses of the 15th C German Gothic era... like this one:
And yeah... this would be a few bucks... probably in the neighborhood of $30k for the harness alone... then you have the supporting garments, period clothing, weapon... horse... castle-keep... 
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Addison C. de Lisle
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| Posted: Sat 10 Dec, 2005 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, we all know that the whole kit-thing is just a lead-in to getting your own castle.
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John Cooksey
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| Posted: Sat 10 Dec, 2005 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Aaron Schnatterly wrote: | | Addison C. de Lisle wrote: | | Oh, and by "full-plate" I mean the tin-can set-up. I like that too, but I thought I'd start with something less expensive...and that looks decent without having all the pieces at once. |
When you mentioned "full-plate", I thought of the plate harnesses of the 15th C German Gothic era... like this one:
And yeah... this would be a few bucks... probably in the neighborhood of $30k for the harness alone... then you have the supporting garments, period clothing, weapon... horse... castle-keep... |
Not to stray off topic, but $30k is a heck of a lot of money for a "relatively" little bit of metal.
I'd skip some of the fancier bits, and go for one of Rob Valetine's historical kits in the $8-$10k range. :-)
And I am building my castle in the so-called 3rd World, where labor is cheap and women are . . . well . . . . never mind. :-)
I didn't surrender, but they took my horse and made him surrender.
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Sat 10 Dec, 2005 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| John Cooksey wrote: | | Not to stray off topic, but $30k is a heck of a lot of money for a "relatively" little bit of metal. |
You're not paying for the metal. You're paying for the time and skill. Materials are nothing in this world. It's exactly opposite of how it was in antique times where man hours were cheap and materials expensive. You could give me 50 times "the metal" needed to make a harness like that and I'd still not be able to produce a single thing resembling a harness. Skill and time, that's the value.
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Sat 10 Dec, 2005 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| John Cooksey wrote: | Not to stray off topic, but $30k is a heck of a lot of money for a "relatively" little bit of metal.
I'd skip some of the fancier bits, and go for one of Rob Valetine's historical kits in the $8-$10k range. :-) |
To bring this back to relevance to Addison's original thread and still address this specifically...
Different costs, different levels of finish, different levels of "authenticity", etc. come into play.
Valentine's harness is primarily 20-gauge (which would be battered to bits in no time, using it the way I would), and I personally don't care for his interpretation. I have met Rob, spoken at some length with him, and I like him... have nothing against the man. This just simply won't meet my extremely high expectations/requirements.
I could buy enough sheet steel to make it myself for a couple hundred bucks... but I couldn't begin to make it look like this, get it to fit me properly, articulate the way it should (if at all), etc. My personal choice for an armourer to execute a project like this would be Peter Fuller or Robert MacPherson... that money goes not to materials, but skill and execution. Actually, in my case, my choice is Peter, and for something quite similar to the harness pictured. I'm expecting to have it finished somewhere around 2008. Meanwhile, I do have another 2 harnesses in the works, which are considerably less expensive (relatively speaking)... one High Gothic, one 16th C English full. Both should be completed soon, and both are for full-contact work.
Last edited by Aaron Schnatterly on Sat 10 Dec, 2005 7:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Addison C. de Lisle
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| Posted: Sat 10 Dec, 2005 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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...which leads back into why I brought up lamellar. It looks less time-consuming than chainmaille, and I can put it together myself once I find somewhere that sells the metal plates. In addition, it's much less expensive than harness. I am not prepared to spend multi-thousands of dollars right now.
Would metal gauntlets be period-correct (I'm getting really tired of the word "appropriate")? Or just leather? Also, it appears Patrick is wearing leather boots in his pictures, so I guess that some steel-toed boots should suffice.
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Kenton Spaulding
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| Posted: Sat 10 Dec, 2005 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Addison,
My recommendation to you, and you are definitely on the right track already, would be to really do some good hard research, get as many opinions as you can, and shop around before you buy anything. Back in my younger days (by that I mean prior to about July) I would just pick up things here and there as the urge took me. I didn't have a lot of focus, and I didn't really know what I was doing. I find looking back that I really was burned on some purchases, and wish now that I had done more research before spending money. Had I not done things on such whims, I would be in a much better state now. That is my little piece of advise, hopefully it is helpful. The fact that you are hear asking is definitely proof that you are more on the ball then I was 
As for the Clontarf, I believe seeing there were under 10 remaining, although I'm not positive. I would love to snatch one up myself, but seeing how I was just talking about not acting on a whip, I had better refrain 
Kenton
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Sat 10 Dec, 2005 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Addison C. de Lisle wrote: | | Would metal gauntlets be period-correct (I'm getting really tired of the word "appropriate")? Or just leather? Also, it appears Patrick is wearing leather boots in his pictures, so I guess that some steel-toed boots should suffice. |
"Appropriate" is actually, well, appropriate!
To answer your hand protection question, I'll speak from a "historical accuracy" point of view...
No gauntlets/gloves would be "accurate". Leather gloves would be "safe". Metal gauntlets would be way out of place.
As for boots, Patrick's are a decent representation. They are actually pretty close to original medieval footwear. It all depends on how "accurate" you want to get... modern boots stick out like a red dress at a funeral to a reenactor, but they'd do if that's what you've got... until you decide/need/can afford to do better. They are about $75 a pair, I believe...
This is part of the fun and the frustration... starting a kit takes time and effort. Building a SOLID kit takes a lot of time, effort, and a few bucks. More of one usually leads to less of another... for the right price, you can have everything quickly. For a ton of effort and time, you can find deals, and make some of the bits yourself.
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John Cooksey
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| Posted: Sat 10 Dec, 2005 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: | | John Cooksey wrote: | | Not to stray off topic, but $30k is a heck of a lot of money for a "relatively" little bit of metal. |
You're not paying for the metal. You're paying for the time and skill. Materials are nothing in this world. It's exactly opposite of how it was in antique times where man hours were cheap and materials expensive. You could give me 50 times "the metal" needed to make a harness like that and I'd still not be able to produce a single thing resembling a harness. Skill and time, that's the value. |
You are completely correct, of course.
Gods know I couldn't make something like that. :-)
I just can't envision paying as much for armor as for a large truck. (grin)
Maybe some day . . . . .
I didn't surrender, but they took my horse and made him surrender.
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Addison C. de Lisle
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| Posted: Sat 10 Dec, 2005 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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I'm planning on making this over the course of the next year. I'm in no rush.
You've answered all the questions I can think of so far.
Just one last question: do any of you have a suggestion as to where I can get steel lamellar plates? Or how I can make my own without a forge?
So the shopping list is:
-Spectacle Helm
-Maille Coif
-Splinted Vambraces
-Splinted Greaves
-Boots
-lamellar plates
-Maybe spaulders
Thanks for all you help! Suggestions are welcome!
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