[Cole Sibley]

I recently came into possesion of a couple of 'Japanese' swords, the owner had no identification or knowledge other than the standard "Father brought them home from WWII", which may or may not be true. I'm pretty much ignorant as far as Japanese swords go myself, but the price was right so I jumped on it. Can someone help me figure out what I have or point me in the right direction? My internet research so far hasn't been particularly productive.

Sword 1

Length Overall: 42.25 inches
Length Blade: 30.5 inches
Weight: probably a bit over 2 pounds








It is quite blade heavy (surprisingly so to me, having never handled a 'real' Japanese blade, this may in fact be 'correct'). There is no visible Hamon (as I understand it). The 'Rayskin' of the sheath and handle (saya and tsuka?) is in excellent condition, some minor scratches but very tight and whole. The rondel (Tsuba?) is slightly loose. The blade is covered in 'in-relief' markings of fish, flowers, and perhaps clouds (the markings are raised, personally I can't think of how to construct this short of 'stamping'), and is very thick and heavily constructed of some type of steel (how to tell?), with some damage to the tip (looks like a very poor sharpening job). The 'sweep' of the blade is not what I would call perfect, probably ground out during construction.

Sword 2
Length Overall: 51.5 inches (this thing is huge, nearly as big as my 'big' German Longsword that I built)
Length Blade: 38.5 inches
Weight: very close to 3 pounds








This sword is very heavy 'feeling', and Large. It also may have what could be called a hamon, but I can't tell, it seems a bit 'fake' (or not, I can't decide). The blade has relief pictures of flowers on a growing tree branch. Its saya and tsuka are perhaps covered in some type of very tightly wrapped cord or leather, in pretty good shape. Its fittings are a bit loose, but fits tightly in the saya. The blade's 'sweep' is a little rough to my eye, again probably by a grinder during construction (not that it looks bad, its still quite nice, simply not what I might expect from a 'real' Japanese sword). The Tsuba is exceptionally plain and a bit rusted (smells of oil, simply surface rust patina).



So, did I waste my time on these? They are quite nice to look at, but I'd like to know just how good of care I should be taking of these things. I'm a bit 'spooked' to take them apart yet, I'm just not confident I can do it without damageing something due to my lack of practice and knowledge. Living in the 'boondocks' means that there is not likely anyone within 500 miles that might have a clue or that I would trust on the matter. So here's hoping you guys have some good suggestions, thanks for anything.

[Thomas Jason]

Sorry bud, these are fakes.

[Chad Arnow]

[Gabriel Lebec]

Hi Cole,

I regret to inform you that neither sword is authentic.

Though I was able to confidently say this after a quick glance, I'll provide you with some specific points so that any doubts you may have can be put to rest:

Sword 1:

Blade:
1. Terrible, uneven, rounded-out and wavery shaping beyond what could be expected even from inexpert "restoration."
2. Point does not look "damaged" so much as poorly forged in the first place.
3. Relief carving is absolutely unknown on nihonto. It would imply that the entire blade surface around the carving was removed, which would be anathema to a sword culture that is fastidious about preservation. True horimono (decorative carvings) are engraved into the surface, and may be relief within the carving itself, but not above the surface of the blade. Apart from this, the subject material is thoroughly non-traditional and inexpertly done. More importantly, the "carving" has the appearance of actually being cast, not carved.
4. Steel surface appears artificially aged.
Mounts:
1. Mounts are not all in proportion to each other.
2. Fittings appear cast and artificially patinated - that is, given a poor nontraditional and not very attractive patination. Traditional methods of artificial patination exist, but result in very different appearance.
3. Whatever is wrapped around the handle, it isn't samé (rayskin) of the type used on Japanese swords.
4. Mounts are atypical of WWII mountings and Japanese mountings in general.

Sword 2:

Everything that was said of sword 1 can be said to a greater degree of sword 2. Here, the blade is completely out of proportion, the fittings are huge and ungainly, the aging is clearly artificial, the patination is baked-on and discolored, and the entire sword exhibits poor shaping and fitting.

------

This story has been repeated often enough that I no longer take the time necessary to pare down my replies to be as diplomatic as they should be. So I hope you believe me when I state that I sincerely mean no offense by the above comments. I could simply assert that they are completely and utterly fake and then leave you to scratch your head as to why I should say so, or I could give you as much of my reasoning as possible to help you understand where I'm coming from. [EDIT: Thom's and Chad's replies were posted while I was writing this - this wasn't in reference to them. Truth be told, I was actually quite tempted to just write "they're fake" and let someone else bother with the explanation. ]

In the end, though, I also want to stress that the reasons stated above are not the only ones by which I make these assertions. Rather, it's from viewing enough verifiably authentic examples in all states of preservation and across all levels of quality that allows one to recognize the overall character of an authentic Japanese sword - even an authentic piece of crap (which do, of course, exist). Objectively apart from the low quality of these swords, they certainly are not real, and I very much hope that you did not pay as if they were. They have every appearance of being a typical recently-made Chinese knockoff.

Best wishes, and I hope you have the chance to acquire some beautiful authentic nihonto some day,
-Gabriel L.

[Cole Sibley]

Thanks Chad, thats what I'm going for. I realize that they are almost surely 'fakes'. But if they are 'fakes', they are in my own opinion extremely well done; somebody put a lot of work into these. If they are in fact 'Gunto', they are rather poor specimens and not particularly valuable beyond there 'antiqueness', which doesn't particularly interest myself. I would like to know where they came from, if possible. I would also like to find out what the blade's are made of, but haven't figured out how to test them non-destructively yet. Regardless, the price was right and well worth it to me. I'm just hoping to figure out what it is I have, as I don't want to misrepresent them in any way. Any info ('good' or 'bad') is greatly appreciated, thanks.

[Russ Ellis]

I'm not an expert on Japanese swords (or any other type for that matter) nor do I play one on t.v. but even to my undereducated eye those swords have some serious problems. It looks like Gabriel has already pointed out most of what I was going to say (and then some) and I didn't post fast enough. However I did take the time to track down a picture or two. Here is the kissaki from a known type of fake that is coming out of China:


Which looks much like what you show there.

Compare too...



Also some fake carvings...



Which are all to common on fake nihonto but rarely seen on the real thing. (and when they are there they are MUCH cleaner)



A fake hamon



The real thing...



I found these images in about 10 minutes online. I did have the advantage of knowing where to look as a starting point, but a little bit of work with a search engine would have turned up the same thing fairly quickly... An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of fake swords... or something like that.

In my opinion these are probably fakes, and don't appear to even be very good ones...

[Russ Ellis]

Forgot to ask... did you purchase these on ebay?

[Thomas Jason]

[Cole Sibley]

Thanks fellas, much appreciated, and no offense taken, I was never under the impression that these might be 'real' in any fashion beyond being sharp and pointy. They cost me an old shotgun that hasn't been fired in many years and was in fact probably more 'fake' than the swords themselves, I'm not out much. Probably they came out of China then? My dad may enjoy that, he was over their in 2002 or so and seen these being made in a 'sword shop' and wanted very badly to buy me one, but couldn't figure out how to get it home (he did buy a knife, which is fairly well made).

One can assume that the blades are not hardened/tempered in any fashion then? Initial 'flex test' leads me to believe that they may be more than mild/stainless type of material, but I can't figure out how to test it without scratching them up or bending 'too far'. Regardless, they will not be more than the simple conversation piece, around here they would be easy to 'pass off' as 'real' (which is not my intention, thats why I asked).

I am surprised that someone would put that much work into an item that goes for so little, it seems to me the sword-smiths would be much better off simply constructing 'real' swords, but perhaps they are getting 'real money' for these someplace. I suppose it only takes one guy to pay $500 for one and the rest sold at $100 is still making the makers money. Thanks for the help gents.

P.S. As my dad said when he came back from China "watch out, China is going to take over the world in a few more years, they can build Anything we can, and at 1/10th the price".

P.P.S. Russ, they were on a Gunbroker.com auction, out of a small gunshop in Alabama I believe, who knows where they got it from, trade-in or straight from China? I guess all he'll say is the 'brought home from WWII' speech again.

[Nathan Robinson]

[Chad Arnow]