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Mark Morris
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 Posted: Fri 02 Dec, 2005 1:05 pm Post subject: Question about sword balance |
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I have four reproduction swords: Cold Steel Scottish Broadsword, Albion 13th Century Knightly, Albion Knight and Albion Allectius Mainz Gladius (just arrived today!). They all seem a tad blade heavy. At the Lanze Fest in New Glarus, I had the opportunity to handle the Albion Museum Line Brescia Spadona. That sword felt lighter than the Knight. I was amazed by this.
I realise that different swords will handle and feel different. But I just assumed that good balance meant that all swords would handle more like the Brescia (feels light because it is well balanced. It does not feel like the blade is weighting it downward).
I really, really like my Albion swords. I am not complaining about the construction. They are superb. I was just curious about what well balanced is supposed to mean or feel like. 
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Fri 02 Dec, 2005 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark wrote: | | I realise that different swords will handle and feel different. |
You've just answered your own question. "Balance" means many different things regarding many different designs. Your other swords are primarily cutting designs whereas the Brescia, while it has cutting ability, has a greater emphasis on the thrust. A sword dedicated to the cut will need a certain amount of blade presence in order to function as it should.
"Balance" isn't about feeling "nice", it's about being balanced appropriately for the intended task.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Fri 02 Dec, 2005 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | "Balance" isn't about feeling "nice", it's about being balanced appropriately for the intended task. |
Couldn't have said it any better... Balance is a concept that really needs to be put into context... form follows function.
| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | You've just answered your own question. "Balance" means many different things regarding many different designs. Your other swords are primarily cutting designs whereas the Brescia, while it has cutting ability, has a greater emphasis on the thrust. A sword dedicated to the cut will need a certain amount of blade presence in order to function as it should. |
Precisely... and each of the other pieces Mark's got will have significantly different properties compared to each other, as well. However, as Patrick points out here, these are all weighted (if you'll excuse the semi-pun) towards cutting as opposed to thrusting. The Brescia, though it's a cutting demon, is much, much more adept at putting it's point on target, despite being significantly longer. It's used significantly differently - in other words, it's function is different - so it's balance (and other properties) - it's form - also differs. Comparing the Brescia to the Regent, Landgraf, or Svante presents a bit of a spread again, but they would all feel different from swords that were primarily cutters...
This is one of the aspects of swords that I have really come to appreciate by handling them - statistics don't tell the whole story.
I think it's a neat discussion, and I am glad Mark asked about it.
By the way... that Mainz Gladius is freakin' sweet! Yes, this is from the "I don't care for Roman swords" guy - got to handle all the Romans that are in production at this time, and I was pretty surprised at their liveliness... and they're quite attractive, too.
-Aaron Schnatterly
_______________
Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Fri 02 Dec, 2005 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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I dig Roman gear. I really liked the original Albion Mark Gladii and I'm sure the Next Gen versions are even better.
Congrats on that one Mark.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Fri 02 Dec, 2005 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | I really liked the original Albion Mark Gladii and I'm sure the Next Gen versions are even better. |
That's an understatement. These are all kinds of  sweet. The Albion Mark was nice, but this is a big advance.
-Aaron Schnatterly
_______________
Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Fri 02 Dec, 2005 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Aaron Schnatterly wrote: | | Patrick Kelly wrote: | | I really liked the original Albion Mark Gladii and I'm sure the Next Gen versions are even better. |
That's an understatement. These are all kinds of sweet. The Albion Mark was nice, but this is a big advance. |
Are we into stating the obvious today? 
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Kirk Lee Spencer
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| Posted: Fri 02 Dec, 2005 7:37 pm Post subject: Re: Question about sword balance |
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| Mark Morris wrote: |
...I really, really like my Albion swords. I am not complaining about the construction. They are superb. I was just curious about what well balanced is supposed to mean or feel like. |
Hi Mark...
I noticed that the swords I have dedicated to cutting are a little blade heavy when holding them (static balance). However, that extra blade weight seems to disappear once the blade is put in motion (dynamic balance). A case in point is the MRL Arbedo which is a cut and thrust sword that has a really nice static balance, but I never sense that I have very good control of the blade when it is moving. However my Del Tin St. Maurice of Turin sword feels really blade heavy when holding it, but that extra weight down front seems to stabilize the blade when it is in motion... and no doubt the extra inertia would do a lot more damage.
ks
Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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John Cooksey
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| Posted: Fri 02 Dec, 2005 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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Next Gen differences: moved
I didn't surrender, but they took my horse and made him surrender.
Last edited by John Cooksey on Sat 03 Dec, 2005 10:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Fri 02 Dec, 2005 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| John Cooksey wrote: | I've been wondering for a while now . . . . just how are the next gen Roman swords different from the earlier Albion Mark Roman-era swords?
I've got one of the earlier Mainz pieces, and it is a sturdy and vicious beast. It chops well, the last 6 inches do great "tip" cuts, and it thrusts like nobody's business. |
In an effort not to stray too much, I'll ask: Please ask this question in the topic in the "Makers" forum to Albion or in a new topic to the members of this site. I'd probably choose to do it in the makers forum simply because I'm not sure many (if any?) customers have received their swords yet.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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Mark Morris
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| Posted: Wed 07 Dec, 2005 9:12 am Post subject: Question about sword balance |
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Thanks for the enlightening words everyone.
I did not realise that a sword was designed to have a static balance and a dynamic balance.
I noticed the difference in handling qualities between holding the sword and swinging it.
The first time that I ever picked up a real sword was at the Blade show last summer. That was quite an eye opener as well and rekindled my interest in this whole area!
I still have a lot to learn.
Patrick and Aaron,
You guys could have second careers as teachers! And writers too!
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Wed 07 Dec, 2005 11:18 am Post subject: Re: Question about sword balance |
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| Mark Morris wrote: | Thanks for the enlightening words everyone.
I did not realise that a sword was designed to have a static balance and a dynamic balance.
I noticed the difference in handling qualities between holding the sword and swinging it. |
Swords are so, so much more than just a fancy crowbar with an edge... glad you are getting to appreciate some of these more subtle but vital elements, Mark! Hope you are really enjoying this, and continue to do so for a long, healthy time to come.
| Mark Morris wrote: | The first time that I ever picked up a real sword was at the Blade show last summer. That was quite an eye opener as well and rekindled my interest in this whole area!
I still have a lot to learn. |
We all still have a lot to learn - which is one of the big draws to me. In fact, it seems the more I learn, the less I realize I know... answers breed questions.
It doesn't surprise me at all that you found renewed interest and surprise when actually having a good sword in your hand. It's one of those things that you just can't relate very well without some prior experience, and is one of the things I discussed with Howy of Albion a couple of weeks ago...
| Mark Morris wrote: | Patrick and Aaron,
You guys could have second careers as teachers! And writers too! |
Thanks, Mark! I'll take that as quite a compliment.
Patrick's certainly taught me a good deal, and I value his friendship as well... This forum is loaded with good, knowledgeable folks - lots to share and lots to learn.
-Aaron Schnatterly
_______________
Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Wed 07 Dec, 2005 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Mark!
My wife has spent most of her adult life as a teacher and no thanks, at least not in the primary education venue.
As for writing, well, that's being discussed on this end more and more.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Vincent Le Chevalier
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| Posted: Wed 07 Dec, 2005 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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Hi all
This will be my very first serious post on these forums... Thanks by the way for all the interesting discussions !
| Aaron Schnatterly wrote: | | This is one of the aspects of swords that I have really come to appreciate by handling them - statistics don't tell the whole story. |
I'd still love to see statistics about a number of sword (preferably historical). I mean, more statistics than just the various lengths and the position of the point of balance... As far as I could figure out, to determine the handling characteristics of a weapon, you would need at least :
- point of balance
- two pivot points
- length and position of the handle (and/or hands)
- length of the whole thing, obviously
As far as I could check with all the weapons I've encountered, it seems to be enough...
Obviously that wouldn't suffice for the cutting properties (for which you'd need the whole blade profile anyway...). But handling is already an important part...
Are there any data out there, including all these measurements, on a wide array of swords ? I'm planning to write an article on that exact subject, and I would love to test some theories I have against real data taken from historical weapons.
If there isn't, I might consider taking measurement in a museum if I ever get to find the time (and if they do allow me  )
Regards
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Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Mark Morris
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| Posted: Wed 07 Dec, 2005 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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Patrick,
I am a trainer at my job and I respect teachers a whole lot more since I have seen the other side of the desk! 
I am quite serious about the writing thing though. I think you would do well at it.
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Mark Morris
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Felix Wang
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| Posted: Wed 07 Dec, 2005 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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Vincent,
I am reasonably certain that the data you describe are not available for any historical sword, except for the private records of (maybe) researchers like Peter Johnsson. Most museum pieces are categorized as works of art or historical interest only: and who cares exactly "how big the Mona Lisa is? or how much does a Napoleonic flag weigh?"? The information you are interested in are of functional interest, and it is precisely functional interest which is not held to be particularly important by museum curators, archeologists, and so on (with exceptions, of course). Even length overall and weight are not regularly published.
The flip side is the difficulty of getting access to various weapons. This is compounded by the tendency of institutions to regard any data extracted from their holdings to be their property - even if they were never going to do the measurements, and didn't know anyone who cared. You still get copywrite type issues.
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Wed 07 Dec, 2005 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Felix Wang wrote: | I am reasonably certain that the data you describe are not available for any historical sword, except for the private records of (maybe) researchers like Peter Johnsson.
The flip side is the difficulty of getting access to various weapons. This is compounded by the tendency of institutions to regard any data extracted from their holdings to be their property - even if they were never going to do the measurements, and didn't know anyone who cared. You still get copywrite type issues. |
I had the extreme fortune of having a good, long talk with Peter a couple of weeks ago about exactly this topic. There isn't a big data set out there, and public records of exhaustive data about many specific historic swords are very rare. There isn't even much of a "standard" to measuring swords in regards to some measurement techniques. Some museums are extremely hard to gain access to, others are very easy. Some will barely let you examine a blade, others will give you almost free reign. As Felix points out, there's often copyright issues. If the study of a particular piece is being done to make a faithful recreation of it, to disclose much or any information gained through this research would be detrimental to the project. There is no funding to support this research, so it's done for personal interest and/or profit in some other way.
I've held two swords side by side with similar on-paper statistics. There's still something about the dynamics, feel, me/piece integration, etc. that makes a significant difference in how they handled.
-Aaron Schnatterly
_______________
Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Vincent Le Chevalier
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| Posted: Wed 07 Dec, 2005 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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Yep, this is the article that got me started on this whole balancing subject. I even found somewhere a PDF containing a more detailed version, containing some data about a cavalry saber... But that's still only one weapon. Definitively not enough to make statistics...
Now, after thinking about this article for a while (and having done all the calculations again ), I do not agree on everything it says. Specifically, I'm not so sure that the precise impact study is that significant, because there are far too many parameters to take into account (and not just physics, those can be tactical as well...). But one thing I'm sure of now is that pivot points (or equivalently moment of inertia) play an important role while just handling the weapon. And what you are doing with your weapon most of the time is handling, impacts are infinitely short anyway
Anyway, thanks for your interest !
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Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Vincent Le Chevalier
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| Posted: Wed 07 Dec, 2005 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Aaron Schnatterly wrote: | | Felix Wang wrote: | I am reasonably certain that the data you describe are not available for any historical sword, except for the private records of (maybe) researchers like Peter Johnsson.
The flip side is the difficulty of getting access to various weapons. This is compounded by the tendency of institutions to regard any data extracted from their holdings to be their property - even if they were never going to do the measurements, and didn't know anyone who cared. You still get copywrite type issues. |
I had the extreme fortune of having a good, long talk with Peter a couple of weeks ago about exactly this topic. There isn't a big data set out there, and public records of exhaustive data about many specific historic swords are very rare. There isn't even much of a "standard" to measuring swords in regards to some measurement techniques. Some museums are extremely hard to gain access to, others are very easy. Some will barely let you examine a blade, others will give you almost free reign. As Felix points out, there's often copyright issues. If the study of a particular piece is being done to make a faithful recreation of it, to disclose much or any information gained through this research would be detrimental to the project. There is no funding to support this research, so it's done for personal interest and/or profit in some other way.
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Yes, I know there could be a potential copyright problem here. Plus I don't really have that much time to explore all the museums. Maybe some museum would allow to publicise conclusions drawn on measurements, as long as the detail remains private. It would still be better than nothing in my opinion. Hey, I would like to measure some swords even if it was just for myself after all
| Aaron Schnatterly wrote: |
I've held two swords side by side with similar on-paper statistics. There's still something about the dynamics, feel, me/piece integration, etc. that makes a significant difference in how they handled. |
I've never had the chance to make such an experiment. Clearly the shape of the handle, air drag, etc. would change slightly the overall feel, but I'd expect that to be in second order with respect to the dynamic properties... The whole point of having a good set of measurements would precisely be to know if some of those properties were adjusted. And which properties, of course.
Regards
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Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Wed 07 Dec, 2005 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Vincent Le Chevalier wrote: | | Plus I don't really have that much time to explore all the museums. Maybe some museum would allow to publicise conclusions drawn on measurements, as long as the detail remains private. It would still be better than nothing in my opinion. Hey, I would like to measure some swords even if it was just for myself after all |
I'd love to have both the access and time to just explore one museum's collection thoroughly. Handling original pieces is a rather amazing (magical? spiritual?) experience. I'd love to see you have the opportunity to check some out, even if for no other reason than just to do so.
| Vincent wrote: | | Aaron Schnatterly wrote: |
I've held two swords side by side with similar on-paper statistics. There's still something about the dynamics, feel, me/piece integration, etc. that makes a significant difference in how they handled. |
I've never had the chance to make such an experiment. Clearly the shape of the handle, air drag, etc. would change slightly the overall feel, but I'd expect that to be in second order with respect to the dynamic properties... The whole point of having a good set of measurements would precisely be to know if some of those properties were adjusted. And which properties, of course. |
I guess I wasn't as clear as I meant to be... I've handled two distinctly different swords that, when reduced to numbers on paper, looked identical. There is much more to a sword than 3 or 4 numbers... taper, cross section, mass distribution, edge geometry... the list goes on and on.
Here's a neat little experiment that you could play with to see relationships between statistics when taking a lot of these other things out of the "equation" - minimal investment in some simple stuff from the hardware store. Get a 3/8 steel rod, a couple of blocks of wood, a couple of bolts with wing nuts, some washers, and duct tape. You could cut pieces of wood so that they could be clamped onto the rod at different places to help simulate weight distribution. Cut two small blocks, put a V-groove on one face of each of them, match up the V-grooves, drill holes on either side clear through, put the bolt through, and secure with the wingnut, and you can easily adjust this "clamp" up and down the length of the rod. By attaching washers to the blocks and to the "pommel" end, you can greatly vary all of the statistics you have mentioned looking for. By using multiple rods of the same diameter, you could vary length as well. At least this would give you a good feeling for what all of these statistics are "in the steel" and how varying one can alter the feel and handling of the piece. Taking this to a next level, you could decide on a CoG and pivot points, then find multiple ways to achieve each with varying distribution of mass - there isn't just one way to get a CoG of 4 inches, with pivot points of 6 and 22 inches (pulling numbers out at random - they don't have any actual significance... but you get the point). This would be a ~$25 investment that would yield a huge return in understanding - and no worries with museum curators or copyright headaches.
I'm not trying to discourage your efforts, just offering you a much easier way to explore some of the same principles in a very simple and unlimited way.
-Aaron Schnatterly
_______________
Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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