[Jean Thibodeau]

I have more questions than knowledge about the use of Warwagons and am curious to learn what is known about them, their historical use, designs and tactical uses actual and theoretical.

Theoretical: How would you design one ? But the first thing should be actual historical use.

The Hussite made good use of Warwagons and early canon and hangonnes, I think the Turks also used them and I seem to remember some late Viking artwork showing soldiers in large war carts.

The Hussite use seems mostly static and a group of Warwagons would be used mostly as mobile resources to rapidly form a static defence: Instant castle !

Design wise: Large heavy carts with soldiers aboard or mobile walls used as protection for small canon or missile troops. Also heavy carts filled with ballast to serve as anchor points for a wall of carts and make the carts hard to turn over.

Mobility: How heavy and what propulsion methods? Horses, oxen, manpower ? Mobility during battle: Nil if used as a strong point.

Would some types move with an infantry line or column ? And if yes, by what means again ? Would the horses, if horses used, have some armour protection ? Horses pulling or pushing ? Any designs with the horses protected by being inside the cart at the first level and with a fighting top: Basically a mobile Keep or tower.

Would a strongly built Warwagon accommodating maybe a small early breach loading canon at the front and maybe a couple of swivel guns and a dozen fighters be too heavy to be moved on a battle field by man power i.e. other soldiers pushing it from the inside or outside or would such a large mass be movable only using oxen or horses.

A Leonardo Da Vinci version might use some form of internal manpower to move very very slowly during a battle mostly to be able to take different positions or pressure a static enemy forcing them to move in a disadvantageous manner.
There might be a system of gears and " bicycle like " contraption permitting slow movement but needing only a dozen or so pedallers. ( Bicycle built for 12 )

The above probably impossible or so impossibly slow as to not be practical and is an example of a " fantasy concept ".

A system of automatic ratchet brake system would keep the Warwagon from rolling back or rolling forward on an incline if one stopped pedalling and would also keep it from picking up speed that would have uncontrollable momentum: Basically, pedal ...... click ......click ......click ....click inching along at probably less than one mile and hour. Oh, this for independent movement on the battlefield. When getting to a battlefield the wagon would be puller by horses in a conventional manner.

Well, that's the " fantasy part ".

[D. Rosen]

German peasants used 'war wagons' during the (German) Peasant Wars in the 15th/16th Centuries. There are a couple of blurbs about war wagons/wagon forts in the Osprey German Peasant War book (Surprise!)

It'd be interesting to see something like DaVinci's 'tank' design but with say two oxen inside the cone, pushing the vehicle from the back; kind of like rear-wheel drive... I really liked the rachet idea. For armament, maybe an organ gun (or two if possible), with spikes/pike ports studding the side & a couple of ports for arquebus, muskets, calivers, & the like. The outer shell would be wood and many layers of wet hide. And to protect the exposed legs of the oxen and vision ports, chain mail. Sure the whole plan is ridiculous, but hey, it uses period materials. To make forts, it'd be interesting to have maybe some sort of hinged rampart that could fold up onto the back (Like a drawbridge but not a door) to deploy to extend the fort, and large latches to connect and stabilize the various wagons. Anyways...if that made any sense...

[Gavin Kisebach]

I believe i read somwhere that seaweed is very fireproof, as it contains brominated flame retardants, and was used on Biblical siege towers. I can't back that up, but it might weigh less that all the wet leather, thus increasing mobility.

I would also think that if battlefield mobility were a part of your strategem, then protecting your animals would be of paramount importance, so barding is a must.

In a static posture I'd set wagons at angles to the line of battle to disrupt movement and protect wings. Oh hey I recall reading something about this. Here's some info from Wikipedia:

[Jean Thibodeau]

Gavin;

Sounds like what I had already found on-line, and thanks for the Picts. I think we can separate the discussion into the practical use of heavy wagons more or less specialized into people carriers, canon platforms, moveable walls, supply and ballast types of fairly conservative design and used as movable strong point and refuge.

And secondly into more imaginative true mobile fortresses of dedicated design that may have been used ( Low probability. ) and also design exercises for fantasy alternate history " FUN ".

Of the " Fun " side I have another possible design: The whole thing spilt into two sections; a drive section consisting of your draft animals inside a floorless roofed shell were any barding / protection is supported by wheels so that the draft animal are not burdened by the weight of armour draping their bodies. The second section being a two level tower with very small calibre canon at the first level,1 pounders maximum, serving as giant shotguns, the second level being for lighter firearms, crossbows and bows. And, rapid exit ramps on both sides to be able to sally forth quickly or retreat back.

As with modern tanks, part of the system is infantry and cavalry close support and conventional infantry formations.

The ratchet system could be engaged when on hills so that the draft animal could rest when not in motion on a slope or when trying to climb up or down a very steep slope.

The drive section could be set up as a pull section for more efficient travel and alternatively as a pushing drive unit to put the forward aimed canon up in front and protect the drive unit even more.

Well the above version is less sexy than a Leonardo Da Vinci contraption that might work in theory but the Leonardo version would be much to costly to make and maintain and probably incredibly underpowered to the point of not really being able to move without breaking some fragile and complex gear work.

So dump me by time machine in mid 15th century and this is what I might build.

[Gavin Kisebach]

Jean

I like the floorless shell idea, what would you make it out of and how would it be shaped? If you put cannons on a cart, I can only imagine the axles would have to be very stout. That might bring the weight up again.

[Jean Thibodeau]

Gavin;

The whole idea might work or not but I think it would all depend on the math: How heavy, how many draft animal giving what speed.

The shelf for the drive section should be heavy enough protected to stop most arrows but one shouldn't expect the shell to do much if enemy infantry gets up close ! One reason for infantry support and putting it behind the main fighting section when in a fighting line.

For the drive section I see a rectangular frame starting at 3 or 4 feet off the ground and being wide enough to cover the bodies and heads of the draft animals and a roof to protect from high angle arrow fire. The space between the wall and roof would be open and wide enough to let in sufficient air but the roof would extend just a bit wider than the rectangular walls.

The space between the wall and the ground could be covered by hanging leather, rawhide, chains and/or fabric curtains or small over lapping curtains.

Since this frame is wheeled the steering might be done with the forward wheels as opposed to simple reins on the draft animals: Not sure about how best to do this ? Might be a bit of both reins and steering.

At the centre between the rows of animals there might be a narrow beam and walkway were the Crew would control the animals and could see where they are going between the wall and roof.

Materials: As light as possible consistent with being able to stop arrows and maybe the lighter field crossbows. the level of protection being strongest on the walls that also assure the majority of the structural integrity. ( Some minimum level of shock absorption system on the axles would be a good idea to keep teeth rattling down to a bearable level. )

If I'm a little vague is that really making something like this would take a lot of detail design work and some more knowledge than I have about how draft animals are used.

Oh, just a thought, but for rapid travel the protected drive section might be supplemented with another group of draft animals that would be unprotected. In battle, speed would be at most equal to a slow infantry advance and mostly to be able to reposition in an advantageous tactical manner.

The fighting section ? Scale ? Too big and nothing will be able to move. If too small it would be a lot of effort for not much effect. The canons do have to be light, maybe short barrel stone thrower for a main gun were high calibre but low velocity would mean a lot of short range power at a low recoil. This canon being a fixed in place breechloader .

Something like 4 swivel guns breach loaders like the ones used as railing guns on ships.

A small number of handgonnes and mostly crossbows: All those lit matchlocks in a small space with enough gunpowder for the canons might make the crossbows a better choice. ( Plays well with others ! )

Racks of close quarter weapons like maces and short axes and a few pollaxes and spears available for fighting outside.

The main floor having the main gun forward and some loop holes all around for small arms. The second floor with the 4 swivels guns with sockets for the swivels at the corners and on the walls so that all four can be move to any of the walls.

Crew size ? At a guess 2 for main canon two more on main level to help reload the movable breaches or shoot through the loop holes, or to put out fires.
Top level: 2 for each swivel for a total of 8 and something between 4 to 8 to man crossbows or handgonnes.

So that gives (2+2 ) + ( 8+ 4 or 8 ) = 16 or 20 if that proves to be too many needing too large a warwagon one could have only one man per swivel gun and only 4 other guys who could either help with the swivels or use their missile weapons.
This would give (2+2 ) + ( 4+4 ) = 12 which might be more manageable but the minimum to make the whole thing worth while.
Bottom line the resources might be better used on field artillery. But that wouldn't be any fun.

In any case, all this is off the top of my head and the details might change a great deal to make this work, not to mentioned the actual look / style of the warwagon that could be clunky or sexy.