Combat Worthy?....Yeah, right.... -- myArmoury.com

Mark Moore · Posted: Mon 22 Dec, 2003 5:29 pm Post subject: Combat Worthy?....Yeah, right....

Hello all....Nathan suggested that I post this message after an email from him, so here goes......Lots of companies producing swords these days are calling their products 'battle-ready' and 'combat-worthy' and a half dozen other vague terms. I guess if their factory grinder-edged, stainless steel blades will cut you, then it is combat ready. I call it 'ready for a heartache'. The problem is in the weakest link....the TANG. Most every replica company on the market today, save a few, call their swords combat ready knowing good and well they are NOT. There are some FINE makers out there, like Albion Armorers (my heroes), who go out of their way to prove the worthiness of their blades, and I salute them. Still, others say their swords are full-tang, but they will not show one disassembled. I think there needs to be a little more thought put into the wordings of their ads. Today, with movies like BraveHeart, LOTR's, Blade, and Highlander there is a greater demand for replica swords than ever before. C'mon.....Who didn't see Mel swingin' that big Claymore and not wish they had one? So, I say to ALL the makers out there: PUT UP OR SHUT UP. Show your tangs and advertise truthfully. Anyone who knows swords knows that there is a big difference in wallhangers and 'real' swords...swords you would trust your life to. Yes, you may lose a few sales...but you may save a life. You know who you are....you know how your swords are built. Would the CEO of your company go into 'combat' with one of your swords? Wallhangers should be just that...museum-quality sharp replicas should not be fought with...and stage-combat swords should be used only by those who have been trained. To everyone out there who loves his or her swords....look at them there on the wall, or in their rack. How much do you REALLY know about them? Who's with me on this? I think there needs to be some 'tough love' dispensed here, as far as swordmakers go. Just tell the TRUTH...Wallhanger...replica...or Steel-to-Steel? And if you say your product is one of these...SHOW IT...so people can decide for themselves if they want to spend the money. Good day all.

Robert Zamoida · Posted: Mon 22 Dec, 2003 5:42 pm Post subject:

Hear hear!!!!

Angus Trim · Posted: Mon 22 Dec, 2003 6:48 pm Post subject:

"Would the CEO of your company go into 'combat' with one of your swords?"

Yeah, actually I would.....

I believe that Lee Reeves has a photo of my tang. I know that Mac has taken photos of my tangs on several swords he has reviewed, so its not like I'm hiding anything......

Heck, virtually any and every sword I've sold is easily dismountable. So the tang, and every other part of the sword is very easy to get to.......

Good luck on your crusade.......

Joe Fults · Posted: Mon 22 Dec, 2003 8:21 pm Post subject:

I'd be amazed to see any of the questionable companies see this, much less respond to it.

Good luck anyway!

Allan Senefelder · Industry Professional

Mark your really pissed . Thats cool ! If you need any recruits for corperate espionage i'm in ! The
E-mailhandle alone had my attention . Seriously The suturation use of terms like "battle ready"
in conjunction with a variety of products from Pacific rim manufacturers is enough to get under
anyones skin . Mark you and your soap box have my support .

J. Padgett · Posted: Mon 22 Dec, 2003 11:32 pm Post subject:

The only problem is that posting this here is pretty much preachng to the choir. I'm fairly certain he wasn't directing his comments at Angus. We all know better than that. This challenge needs to go out to the kinds of makers and sellers who make crazy claims on ebay.

Ciaran Flanagan · Posted: Tue 23 Dec, 2003 2:40 am Post subject:

I should really have more christmass cheer but this, as said, really is preaching to the chior...tho its always good to vent now and then...
Unfortunatly I was never one to believe in bandwagon crusades, on the surface its seems like a good idea but look even a tiny bit deeper and its pointlessness comes out.. The people who care one iota about making real weapons, make real weapons. Many many activly participate online and adapt and improve as the market demands. Then there are those that dont give a toss about swords, swords are something they sell to make money. These people do not want to be "enlightened". Hype marketing sells swords, thats the reality.

So basically yea, I think the terms are misleading but Im not gonna worry about it. It doesnt directly affect me as I know better, I cant change it because those that list like this dont care what you or I or anyone else who is NOT THEIR TARGET AUDIENCE thinks. there are many collectors of swords, those that appriciate the art, those that appriciate the history, those that use swords for martial arts, those that use them for backyard bashing and **** those that want big shiny replica of their favourie movie sword**** and those that ****want something to hang on thir wall that ;looks scary and nasty***. the latter 2 are the largest comsumers of swords and the marketing is directed at them and not those that would frequent myArmoury.

Ciaran

Russ Ellis · Industry Professional

I believe that Ciaran is substantively correct. As I read the initial post I tried to think of any manufacturer that posts here that I have not seen pictures of their tangs or that tout their wares as "combat worthy." I can't think of anyone. The fact of the matter is that the junk "sword" manufacturers of this world avoid these forums. There is no point in them participating. They are selling their wares to a specific segment of the population and that segment can not be found here.

Mark Moore

I thank all for their posts. Gee, all this started because I asked Nathan about the tang on his CASI Lowlander! Yes, folks, I know I'm preaching to the choir. But, I think if enough people demand satisfaction from these overseas makers, maybe....just maybe...one or two may actually clean up their acts and join the 'big boys'. My most sincere apologies to Angus Trim...I should have mentioned your fine blades also. The point behind the message was, and still is: If they are gonna call it full tang...prove it. I didn't want to name names here, but one case in point is Valiant Arms. I'm not knocking their swords(yet)...they are gorgeous, if not all historically correct. But I have seen their swords advertised as battle worthy and full tang...yet , I have never seen a pic of one dismantled. Once again, I don't want to accuse anyone of something they are not guilty of. There is a market niche for every kind of sword out there right now...even the low end models. I just say to those of you who may be contemplating the purchase of your first 'real' sword....Do research....and lots of it. It will pay off in the end. Thanks again to all. Mark "Clay" Moore

Ken Demyen · Posted: Tue 23 Dec, 2003 9:51 am Post subject:

But you have brought up an good issue, one that involves safety. I am novice to the world of 'real' swords (I do have a collection of wall-hangers). Luckily I posted here for advice before making my first purchase (kudos to myArmoury and the members for the great advice). What about other novices that think they are buying a 'battle ready' sword, taking the term at its face value, them taking it out to try to do some cutting with it, and end up getting hurt because the sword fails. To bad there is no set standard in which swords are manufactured too, a grading, or certification system if you will. A sword can be just as deadly as a firearm, and you see the lenghts gun manufacturers go to to ensure the safety of their firearms.
I have seen many guidlines for cutting practice by ARMA and others, but little on what is required of a sword that is to be used for this type of practice. If people are to rely on the manufactures, they need some assurance that what ther are getting is what was advertised.

-Ken

Geoff Wood

Erick Johankin · Posted: Tue 23 Dec, 2003 4:11 pm Post subject: Combat Worthy?....Yeah, right....

Mark,

I'm one of those stupid ones who didn't do my homework and bought into the hype (Last Legend hype) for my first "real" sword so I know where your coming from. And Ciaran also made some excellent observations about the lack of concern with "some" sword makers. I have since learned that Albion Mark, Angus Trim and the Del Tins that are assembled by Albion are "THE" swords for me! But I am going to stick my neck out shortly and purchase a Lutel sword if they will ever answer my e-mail? I hope they are as funtional as they are nice looking and their prices with a scabbard and baldric included can't be beat, (even with the overseas shipping!)

Thanks Mark!

Erick

PS - Nothing really wrong, "battle ready wise," with the Last Legend swords except.........they are so heavy that recovery is impossible and if you had to weld one in battle it better be a quick one as exhaustion would surely come quickly cleaving with a blade of such weight.

Shane Smith · Posted: Wed 24 Dec, 2003 5:36 am Post subject:

Hi Erick,
The three Lutels I have experience with have all been very nice handling and well-balanced blunts and the hilts remain tight to this day. The one sharp I know of as sharpened by Lutel themselves is reportedly not a very good performer according to it's owner. Take the last bit for what it's worth as I only trust what I have seen and done for myself most of the time.

Joe Fults · Posted: Wed 24 Dec, 2003 8:23 am Post subject:

Having owned 3 Lutels in the past, I can vouche their quality and durability. The place where they typically get a bit or criticism is historical accuracy. They are a good value and when the dollar is strong against the local currency (it is not now) they can become an exceptional value. In fact they may be slightly underrated compared to some more highly touted vendors.

One last thing, A&A really needs added to any "must have" list.

Especially if you want something with a complex hilt or something custom with a reasonable turn around time. Although they currently face some interesting challenges for my collecting dollar, A&A is my favorite sword company to deal with and they have always dealt fairly with me.

Mark Moore · Posted: Wed 24 Dec, 2003 12:52 pm Post subject: Combat Worthy

I've heard nothing but good reports on Lutel. True, some are not very historically based, but everyone has a picture of the 'perfect' sword in his minds eye. The Albion line of hand forged and ground replicas is most likely the best, as far as historic designs go, and ATrim makes some awesome cutters. I have heard a lot of good comments also on Heimrick Armoury swords, saying they are very tough and durable. While I'm here, let me give out a shameless plug for my pal Glenn Parrell of Viking Metal Works in Newfoundland. Give him a look. He does fine work in Viking and Medieval styles. Bye All!

Jay Barron · Posted: Wed 24 Dec, 2003 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: Combat Worthy

Mark Moore · Posted: Wed 24 Dec, 2003 7:05 pm Post subject: Thanks to Ken Demyen...

You pretty well summed up what I was trying to say about the use of inferior swords when you said there should be some form of grading system. But alas, it would do about as much good as a skull and crossbones on a pack of cigarettes. Education is the best we can do. While children are not(supposed to be) able to buy swords and knives, we all know they do. This is my greatest fear....some kid buying a swap-meet Pakistani special, then taking it out to play with it thinking he's a Ninja or Connor McLeod...and winding up in the hospital. Or worse. All of you in these forums right now know better. We, as educated collectors, swordsmen, and all around good guys should all take the time to educate the younger generation however we can. Go to schools...put on demonstrations. Buy a cheapo and show how it stands up to a sharpie of good quality, and a good sparring blunt. Sure, Aragorn and Gandalf are the heroes of today...but we all need to show the difference between Hollywood and real life. Maybe, then, we can be the heroes of tomorrow. Thanks, all. Happy Holidays! Mark "Clay" Moore

Ken Demyen · Posted: Wed 24 Dec, 2003 11:11 pm Post subject: Re: Thanks to Ken Demyen...

Erick Johankin · Posted: Thu 25 Dec, 2003 11:33 am Post subject:

Shane, Joe, Mark,

Thanks for the comments concerning Lutel. Could you fellas do me a favor and tell me how to contact them? I've e-mailed them twice in two weeks and I've gotten no reply. Also, on their web site I see no way of sending them money. Should I pay for an overseas call and hope someone who speaks English answers?

And "Yes," I forgot the Scottish sword company Armour Class as I too have heard only positive comments concerning their swords and daggers. BTW, the 3 companys that I did mention, I have first hand knowledge of.

My humble "medieval" collection consist of:
Albion - Crusader Type XII
Albion assembled - Del Tin ADT-5156 "Bastard Sword"
Albion assembled - Del Tin ADT-2104 "Viking"
Atrim - AT1422 (being put together now and to be shipped around Jan 1, according to Gus)
Last Legend - Boat Anchor model "Count of Anjour Captains Sword"

I ordered the Atrim after handling a friends AT1427 Short Sword. It was so light and fast and it tracked and recovered like a dream. Did I mention it was razor sharp from the box? So I decided on the AT1422 which is a "Type XVIII, single handed, short (30") wide blade with a sharp taper to a fine point" to quote Gus' web site. I can't wait!

Erick

Andy Bain · Posted: Thu 25 Dec, 2003 1:29 pm Post subject:

I recently ordered two items from Lutel. They responded to my initial email within a week. I
mentioned the items I was interested in and gave them my address so they could atell me
how much shipping would be. In their reply they gave me details on how to send payment.
Now according to their waiting list they have started work on my order. The waiting is always
the hardest part.