Info Favorites Register Log in Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search is now completely member-supported. Please contribute to our efforts with a donation. Your donations will go towards updating our site, modernizing it, and keeping it viable long-term. We've collected $648 towards our goal of $2400.
Last 10 Donors: Andy K., Gregg Sobocinski, Milan Ziegler, Todd Hawkins, Jesse Belsky, Ryan Hobbs, Johannes Zenker, Aaron Hoard, Leo Todeschini, M. Adair Orr (View All Donors)

Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Black Prince Helm with Crest Reply to topic
This is a Spotlight Topic Go to page Previous  1, 2 
Author Message
Jeff Hsieh

Joined: 26 Jan 2004

Posts: 59

PostPosted: Wed 02 Nov, 2005 9:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Rod,

I really like your kit, a LOT. Can you give details on each piece of it? Like who made it, where you got historical inspirations, pieces you're satisfied/dissatisfied with, etc.

"Tuitio fidei et obsequium pauperum."
- The Knights Hospitaller, 1130 AD
View user's profile Send private message
Bruno Giordan

Joined: 28 Sep 2005

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 919

PostPosted: Thu 03 Nov, 2005 2:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Knights in the Manesse code inviariably feature helmets topped by elaborate three dimensional versions of their heraldic emblems.

That is what history teaches us, so we cannot pretend t change it to have it adapted to our fancies.

 Attachment: 22.15 KB
Manesse 2.jpg

View user's profile Send private message
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin

myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Thu 03 Nov, 2005 3:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

More examples:

Circa 1485

Circa 1450

Click for details

.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Russ Ellis
Industry Professional

Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

Posts: 2,608

PostPosted: Thu 03 Nov, 2005 6:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian Henry Tobler wrote:
BTW, the hat itself is a simple chapeau with an ermine brim. There are numerous illustrations of nobles wearing one version or another of that style hat - you can even see later variations of it in Talhoffer. These hats were made in a pattern roughly akin to a backwards version of the hunting style, or 'Robin Hood' hat.

Many crests for jousts were elaborate, immitative of civilian fashion, or downright whimsical.

Personally, I think it's pretty cool...

All the best,


Thanks for the confirmation Christian. That's an intersting aspect in a way, it would be sort of like wearing a baseball cap (sorry only sort of contemporary hat I can think of that enjoys anything like popularity) on top of a modern "Fritz" style G.I. helmet. Happy Question

TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards

Last edited by Russ Ellis on Thu 03 Nov, 2005 6:33 am; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message
Jean Thibodeau

Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,282

PostPosted: Thu 03 Nov, 2005 6:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

From one of my French reference books: ARMES ET ARMURE de Charlemagne à Louis XIV, Paul Martin © 1967 Office du Livre, Fribourg. Page 106 figures 82 shows a drawing of Ludwig von Hutton ( 1414 ) in armour influenced by the fashion of the period, Ludwig lying in state at the cloister Himmelspforten, Wurtzbourg: Next to the Ludwig who is dressed in what seems like armour mixed with civilian clothes, is a great helm with a decoration on top that looks like a head wearing a crown. This might be a Saint or something or maybe even a likeness of the knight in papier maché. Like having a copy of one's own head over one's real head hidden by the Great helm.

Figure 84 shows the same thing and the Head decoration on the Great helm looks exactly like that of the head of the Knight.
Martin von Seinsheim ( 1434 ) Tomb at " La Chapelle Sainte-Marie, Wurtzbourg in the same drawing ( Oh, these drawings are copies, I think, of sculptures at these tombs. ) ( Don't know why drawings 19th century ??? were chosen to illustrate this book rather than photographs: Maybe because the drawings are very clear or maybe because some of these sculptures may no longer exist due to WWII. Just gessing here. )

Unfortunatly I still have to buy that digital camera Blush

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team

myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,952

PostPosted: Thu 03 Nov, 2005 1:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Fascinating discussion. I guess if I were wealthy at a time of sumptuary laws, I'd want to show my status by showing what I was allowed to wear. Likewise, if I were a peasant, I'd dream of the most outlandish and colorful clothes I could imagine. I was perusing Osprey's German Peasant War book the other night and noticed something about the rebel peasants making a special point of flouting the sumptuary laws. Fashion was (is?) an instrument of social control, for sure, and what we see when we look at these crests is very different from what people saw in the period. I would argue that we can't see what they saw (though we certainly should try, as Nathan points out).

Consider the average Landsknecht. He appears to have been equipped by the Committee For Inappopriate Combat Attire.
It's not just about practicality, even now. Flip-flops? Uggs? Baggy-ass jeans? I can just picture archaeologists three centuries from now unearthing some college dormitory preserved by volcanic ash or something. Archaeologist #1 says, "These pants must have been purely ceremonial because no normal-size person could practically move around in them without them sagging to his knees". Archaeologist #2 says, "But there are too many of these pants for them to have been only ceremonial. Rather, they are evidence that 21st century humans were horribly bloated," etc. Much of fashion is just unfathomable even in its own day.

By the way, even some of us peasants can be seen with cats on our heads two or three times per week, usually around 6:00 AM.


"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message

Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Black Prince Helm with Crest
Page 2 of 2 Reply to topic
Go to page Previous  1, 2 All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum

All contents © Copyright 2003-2021 — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum