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Patrick Kelly
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 Posted: Fri 28 Oct, 2005 3:43 pm Post subject: Migration era helm photos |
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With Paul Mortimers kind permission I'll share these photos he sent me some time ago.
Here's Paul dressed as King Raedwald at Sutton Hoo. Paul's entire kit is based upon the Sutton Hoo finds. This is one of the finest helms I have seen, and definitely the best version of the Sutton Hoo helm.
Paul is also the fortunate owner of this highly impressive Patrick Barta piece: http://www.myArmoury.com/review_tmpl_suthoo.html
A friend of Pauls in an equally impressive helm based on one of the Valsgarde finds, made by a craftsman in Northumbria.
I love this time period and I want to be these guys. 
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Fri 28 Oct, 2005 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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Very impressive stuff there Patrick. I wonder if these Helms that have a face mask or hide most of the face give a tactical or psychological advantage in combat: Not being able to see the face of an opponent probably makes it hard to read their intentions. Less information is available, no telegraphing, no way to see fear in their faces which probably is useful confidence building feedback that they are as scared of you as you are scared of them.
Sort of the dark ages version of facing a potentially hostile person when he is wearing mirror or very dark glasses today.
Getting back to the Helms: How much impairment to breathing does a maille aventaile like this cause or heat reflected back ? Comparable to a Barrel Helm maybe ? Any accelerated rusting of the links in front of the nose and mouths.
Any theories why the Vendel period dark ages finds seem better designed ( Complex ? ) and more protective helms than the later and somewhat cruder ( Simpler ? ) Viking or Norman Helms ???
Maybe a false generalization as too few Helms have been found to be able to say that we have a good sampling of what was available ? Naturally Helms found in the tombs of Kings would tend to be the best kinds available with the most costly decorations !
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Steve Grisetti
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| Posted: Fri 28 Oct, 2005 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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Beautiful stuff! Did the Northumbrian craftsman who did the Valsgarde-based helm also do the Sutton Hoo helm?
"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 28 Oct, 2005 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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One word. COOL!
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Fri 28 Oct, 2005 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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Allan: Now I'm feeling guilty about being VERBOSE.   
Yes: COOL.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom
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| Posted: Fri 28 Oct, 2005 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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 Oh man! 
Really nice Vendel Time stuff there, talk about Living History,
i will have nice dreams this night
Frid o Fröjd!
Patrik
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Fri 28 Oct, 2005 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | Very impressive stuff there Patrick. I wonder if these Helms that have a face mask or hide most of the face give a tactical or psychological advantage in combat: Not being able to see the face of an opponent probably makes it hard to read their intentions. Less information is available, no telegraphing, no way to see fear in their faces which probably is useful confidence building feedback that they are as scared of you as you are scared of them.
Sort of the dark ages version of facing a potentially hostile person when he is wearing mirror or very dark glasses today. |
There may be some credibility to that theory Jean, but I don't know how much. We read of ancient armies using trumpets and other noise makers to supposedly strike fear into the hearts of their opponents. Similar things occur in the old germanic and viking sagas that illustrate a warriors attempt to intimidate his opponent. I just wonder how truly effective these things were. If you have one hardened warrior with all sorts of boogy monsters decorating his armor facing another hardened warrior with boggy monsters decorating his armor how terrifying is that going to be? A fashion statement no doubt, but a serious attempt at engendering fear? I don't know.
As for the lack of telegraphing, I don't think so. During my fifteen year fencing career I couldn't see my opponents eyes or face yet it never stopped me from picking up on bodily telegraphing. Likewise during my time in the oriental arts I was taught to never look at your opponents face but rather at his body as a whole. I think the occular plates were more for trying to preserve your nose and eyeballs.
| Quote: | | Getting back to the Helms: How much impairment to breathing does a maille aventaile like this cause or heat reflected back ? Comparable to a Barrel Helm maybe ? Any accelerated rusting of the links in front of the nose and mouths. |
Not much interference towards breathing I'd think but I can't say for sure on the heat reflection (this is moot really when you consider the climate of the region and period).
| Quote: | Any theories why the Vendel period dark ages finds seem better designed ( Complex ? ) and more protective helms than the later and somewhat cruder ( Simpler ? ) Viking or Norman Helms ???
Maybe a false generalization as too few Helms have been found to be able to say that we have a good sampling of what was available ? Naturally Helms found in the tombs of Kings would tend to be the best kinds available with the most costly decorations ! |
I don't think it's a case of these helms being designed better because I don't think they are. You have to remember that this is an age where a man's accoutrements show his status. This has always been true throughout history but no more so than in this period. Iron smelting was still in it's infancy generally speaking so a man wearing either of these helmets would have been a man of status. These aren't helms for the fyrd as they wouldn't have had one to begin with.
As for helmets of the viking age and earlier medieval periods we simply don't have enough surviving examples to generate a firm hypothesis. By the 11th century we do start to see arms and armor becoming more of a general issue type of affair. Perhaps this has something to do with the more austere appearance. Swords become more common and begin to lose something of their elite status. They're still expensive but are no longer reserved only for cheiftans and warriors of high status. I think the same can be applied to helms and other armor. We also need to keep technology in mind. Part of technological advancement is to make things easier to manufacture without sacrificing capability. A highly decorated helm with an occular plate won't really protect you any more than a raised conical helm with a nasal guard, in spite of whatever fru-fru you decorate it with.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
Last edited by Patrick Kelly on Fri 28 Oct, 2005 5:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Fri 28 Oct, 2005 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Steve Grisetti wrote: | | Beautiful stuff! Did the Northumbrian craftsman who did the Valsgarde-based helm also do the Sutton Hoo helm? |
No, the Sutton Hoo helm was made by a different craftsman who's name escapes me. Hopefully Paul will chime in with some further information.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Geoff Freeman
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| Posted: Fri 28 Oct, 2005 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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Ooh. Now that is some very nice stuff. Very nice. Oh, how I would love to have a kit like that. Too bad that mail is not very flattering for an overweight physique. It's just ruins the look when you have all nice stuff (helm, sword, hauberk) coupled with a big beer gut  (by the way, I am not referring to the gentlemen in the photos). Truly, these are some awesome items on display.
Geoffrey C. Freeman
Durendal Fencing Club
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Bob Burns
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| Posted: Fri 28 Oct, 2005 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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Oh Man! That is totally KICK! BIGTIME! 2nd pic and recent pic of other helm I really admired the warrior instinct in your eyes! Patrick, you have excellent taste, you really do! That is one very impressive helm, heck the whole "costume" (just kidding, joking, referring back to a recent private message to you) warrior attire looks great! We sure have a great hobby don't we! Like I said to Jean in a recent post pertaining to his new armor. The heck with all the people who do not understand and think we are nuts. We know what it is about, too bad for them, they do not have the slightest clue on what they are missing out on. I think you look dynamite in those pictures! As far as I am concerned in my opinion, this is the greatest obsession anyone could have, my neighbors and friends think I have gone off the deep end in having dropped over $5,000.00 the last several months getting myself a decent start in my obsession. I could not care less what they think, for me that was a lot of money in such a short period, but I have not one single regret and I love each and every piece I bought and I will be back at it next year.I am more than willing to deprive myself of other wants, in order to buy more medieval weapons, armor and clothing.
Yep, you look absolutely grand in those pictures and the expression in the eyes is great!
Happy Collecting!
Bob
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Sat 29 Oct, 2005 12:04 am Post subject: |
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| Bob Burns wrote: | Oh Man! That is totally KICK! BIGTIME! 2nd pic and recent pic of other helm I really admired the warrior instinct in your eyes! Patrick, you have excellent taste, you really do! That is one very impressive helm, heck the whole "costume" (just kidding, joking, referring back to a recent private message to you) warrior attire looks great! We sure have a great hobby don't we! Like I said to Jean in a recent post pertaining to his new armor. The heck with all the people who do not understand and think we are nuts. We know what it is about, too bad for them, they do not have the slightest clue on what they are missing out on. I think you look dynamite in those pictures! As far as I am concerned in my opinion, this is the greatest obsession anyone could have, my neighbors and friends think I have gone off the deep end in having dropped over $5,000.00 the last several months getting myself a decent start in my obsession. I could not care less what they think, for me that was a lot of money in such a short period, but I have not one single regret and I love each and every piece I bought and I will be back at it next year.I am more than willing to deprive myself of other wants, in order to buy more medieval weapons, armor and clothing.
Yep, you look absolutely grand in those pictures and the expression in the eyes is great! |
Just to be clear, are you referring to photos of Patrick in the other topic? The ones in this topic are two other people.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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Hisham Gaballa
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| Posted: Sat 29 Oct, 2005 4:09 am Post subject: |
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Great pictures Patrick. Did Paul tell you what his field of vision was like in those hemets? i.e. were they practical for fighting in? 
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Steve Grisetti
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| Posted: Sat 29 Oct, 2005 4:49 am Post subject: |
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| Geoff Freeman wrote: | | ...Too bad that mail is not very flattering for an overweight physique. It's just ruins the look when you have all nice stuff (helm, sword, hauberk) coupled with a big beer gut.... |
 Good point. Same problem here - built more like Hagar the Horrible than Prince Valiant.
"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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Kenneth Enroth
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| Posted: Sat 29 Oct, 2005 5:18 am Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | There may be some credibility to that theory Jean, but I don't know how much. We read of ancient armies using trumpets and other noise makers to supposedly strike fear into the hearts of their opponents. Similar things occur in the old germanic and viking sagas that illustrate a warriors attempt to intimidate his opponent. I just wonder how truly effective these things were. If you have one hardened warrior with all sorts of boogy monsters decorating his armor facing another hardened warrior with boggy monsters decorating his armor how terrifying is that going to be? A fashion statement no doubt, but a serious attempt at engendering fear? I don't know. |
Maybe the noise and decoration is supposed to pump up your own guys for the fight.
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Chuck Russell
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| Posted: Sat 29 Oct, 2005 6:42 am Post subject: |
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wow great stuff. thanks for sharing the pics.
where are these guys? are tehy apart of any local or usa viking groups? if not they NEED to be hehehe. those helmets are awsome.
you know the more i look at the pics the more i wonder what was lost in the grave find. to have THAT much on the helmet and the buckles, there HAD to be more on teh leather belts etc. its just looks too plain ya know what i mean? the arms etc jsut look well too plain! heheh your friend needs to make the purse and the shield to finish up the look!! tell them great job!
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sat 29 Oct, 2005 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| Chuck Russell wrote: | wow great stuff. thanks for sharing the pics.
where are these guys? are tehy apart of any local or usa viking groups? if not they NEED to be hehehe. those helmets are awsome.
you know the more i look at the pics the more i wonder what was lost in the grave find. to have THAT much on the helmet and the buckles, there HAD to be more on teh leather belts etc. its just looks too plain ya know what i mean? the arms etc jsut look well too plain! heheh your friend needs to make the purse and the shield to finish up the look!! tell them great job! |
Unfortunately no they aren't here in the USA, their proper englishmen.
I believe Paul does have the pouch there on his belt but I don't think the pretty bits are visible from that angle. In fact he is working on a replica of the Sutton Hoo shield right now!
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Johan S. Moen
Location: Kristiansand, Norway Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 259
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| Posted: Sat 29 Oct, 2005 10:07 am Post subject: |
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Are the woven panels on the second helm made of metal or leather? Looks like blackened metal, but I can't really be sure... Nice helms, especially the second one caught my eye.
Johan Schubert Moen
You're correct they're metal.
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Bob Burns
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| Posted: Sat 29 Oct, 2005 10:48 am Post subject: |
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Oops, sorry Patrick, that that was you peering behind the helm, misread the post, which clearly states they are a couple of guys in England. Still, those are awesome looking helms, very intimidating.
Bob
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Paul Mortimer
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| Posted: Sat 29 Oct, 2005 11:43 am Post subject: |
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Thanks to everyone about the kind comments concerning my kit and my friends and thanks to Patrick for posting them.
The Sutton Hoo helm was made by a friend of mine, Dave Roper of The Hoard, while Steve's helmet was made by Ulf from Northhumbria. All the decorative plates on both helms are of bronze on mine they have been silvered. The Sutton Hoo helm provides a very good field of vision- much better than some of the later medieval helms that I have tried. There is little impairment of breathing, if any, with the face plate and really none with the mail helm.
There is decoration on all our leather work it doesn't show up in the photo very well.
I am working on the shield and I do have a reasonable copy of the purse.
My friend is Stephen Pollington. he has written and published extensively on Anglo-Saxon topics.
Cheers,
Paul
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Gregory J. Liebau
Location: Dinuba, CA Joined: 27 Nov 2004
Posts: 669
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| Posted: Sat 29 Oct, 2005 11:44 am Post subject: |
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Those kits look beautiful! Those two gentlemen must be very, very proud of those panoplies. And to have one of Patrick's swords, too! I must say I prefer the Valsgarde helmet to the Sutton hoo, but both the helmets look extremely well made, for sure!
Cheers!
-Gregory-
My Flickr Galleries - Travel, Nature & Things
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