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Joe Yurgil
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 Posted: Mon 26 Sep, 2005 12:25 pm Post subject: sabre question |
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Does anyone have any experiance with the Darkwood Armory dueling blades? I assume they are meant for sparing yes? How do they compare with the spotty Hutton sabre that Hanwei came out with? I tried doing a search on this but couldn't find much useful info. Thanks in advance.
Sjá, þar sé ek föður minn.
Sjá, þar sé ek móður mina ok systur mina ok bróður minn.
Sjá, þar sé ek allan minn frændgarð.
Sjá, kalla þeim tíl min.
Biðja mér at taka minn stað hjá þeim í sölum Valhallar, þar drengiligr menn munu lifa allan aldr.
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Eric Myers
Location: Sacramento, CA Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Posts: 214
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| Posted: Mon 26 Sep, 2005 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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I have handled one of Darkwood Armory's dueling sabres. The blade is meant for sparring, yes. It was a little longer than you would expect, and also not quite as broad, but otherwise it was pretty nice. Unfortunately the guard was way to heavy and poorly shaped, and the grip/backstrap were problematic, so it was returned. The blade dimensions were much more along the lines of Hanwei's Pecoraro and "Raedelli" blades, not the Hutton.
Eric Myers
Sacramento Sword School
ViaHup.com - Wiki di Scherma Italiana
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Joe Yurgil
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| Posted: Tue 27 Sep, 2005 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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Gotcha. Thanks. Just to be sure I have my information correct then, essentially its pretty much like a regular fencing sabre blade then right? Why do they charge so much for it then or is it just a really good fencing sabre blade?
Sjá, þar sé ek föður minn.
Sjá, þar sé ek móður mina ok systur mina ok bróður minn.
Sjá, þar sé ek allan minn frændgarð.
Sjá, kalla þeim tíl min.
Biðja mér at taka minn stað hjá þeim í sölum Valhallar, þar drengiligr menn munu lifa allan aldr.
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Eric Myers
Location: Sacramento, CA Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Posts: 214
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Joe Yurgil
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| Posted: Tue 27 Sep, 2005 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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ohhh, ok. thanks. 
Sjá, þar sé ek föður minn.
Sjá, þar sé ek móður mina ok systur mina ok bróður minn.
Sjá, þar sé ek allan minn frændgarð.
Sjá, kalla þeim tíl min.
Biðja mér at taka minn stað hjá þeim í sölum Valhallar, þar drengiligr menn munu lifa allan aldr.
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Chris Holzman
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| Posted: Wed 28 Sep, 2005 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Eric Myers wrote: | | I have handled one of Darkwood Armory's dueling sabres. The blade is meant for sparring, yes. It was a little longer than you would expect, and also not quite as broad, but otherwise it was pretty nice. Unfortunately the guard was way to heavy and poorly shaped, and the grip/backstrap were problematic, so it was returned. The blade dimensions were much more along the lines of Hanwei's Pecoraro and "Raedelli" blades, not the Hutton. |
The backstrap and grip shape, from what I can tell from the pictures are completely unlike what is illustrated in Radaelli. The hanwei iteration of the guard, grip and backstrap shape are basically dead on. The Darkwood iteration is very very very different.
I really would like to see some pictures of the Darkwood blade - but apparently none exist that I can find.
Chris Holzman
River City Fencing Club
Wichita, KS
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Joe Yurgil
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| Posted: Wed 28 Sep, 2005 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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Hanwei hilt...... Darkwood blade..... project anyone? 
(that would be a pricey one though)
Sjá, þar sé ek föður minn.
Sjá, þar sé ek móður mina ok systur mina ok bróður minn.
Sjá, þar sé ek allan minn frændgarð.
Sjá, kalla þeim tíl min.
Biðja mér at taka minn stað hjá þeim í sölum Valhallar, þar drengiligr menn munu lifa allan aldr.
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Eric Myers
Location: Sacramento, CA Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Posts: 214
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Joe Yurgil
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| Posted: Wed 28 Sep, 2005 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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That dosen't look too bad really. Have you taken it apart? What is the tang like?
Sjá, þar sé ek föður minn.
Sjá, þar sé ek móður mina ok systur mina ok bróður minn.
Sjá, þar sé ek allan minn frændgarð.
Sjá, kalla þeim tíl min.
Biðja mér at taka minn stað hjá þeim í sölum Valhallar, þar drengiligr menn munu lifa allan aldr.
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Eric Myers
Location: Sacramento, CA Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Posts: 214
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Chris Holzman
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| Posted: Thu 29 Sep, 2005 7:52 am Post subject: |
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| Joe Yurgil wrote: | | That dosen't look too bad really. Have you taken it apart? What is the tang like? |
From the standpoint of a living tradition dueling sabre practitioner, it really does not look that good. The shape of the backstrap is just *not* right - and the grip is rather oversized for the type of sabre meant to be reproduced.
The backstrap in http://www.slithytove.org/pics/3_sabers/DSCN1507.JPG is providing a swelling toward the hilt, curving with the blade. This provides, functionally, a negative cant to the grip. While this is fine for many French sabres (like a Cheval d' Chasseur sabre from the Napoleonic era), it's not at all appropriate for an Italian dueling sabre. These sabre tend to be either neutral, or slightly positively canted. The center sabre is the best example of an Italian dueling sabre compatible backstrap, although the one on the right is acceptable as well (I personally prefer the one on the right - but it seems to be slightly less common). The grip shape on this Darkwood example is definitely an improvement on the one on their webpage.
Reference to original tangs:
The tangs on the original blades are generally a very narrow wedge shape - far smaller than one might expect. This helps provide a forward balance point - at least more so than a modern fencing sabre. Indeed, while the antique tangs start a bit taller and narrower than a modern fencing sabre tang, they taper dramatially in a wedge shape, with probably 2/3 of the total mass of a modern fencing blade tang. This is important because the steel guard and steel backstrap add quite a bit of weight over the modern sabre guard.
I can't speak to what the Darkwood tangs look like not having seen it. I'm very curious about it though.
How long was the blade? anything over about 34.5" is probably a bit much... It looks like the Darkwood website lists it as a 36".
I do like the Darkwood Radaelli guard shape - they got the ridge down the center correct - rather than the reversed version on the Hanwei model (The Radaelli text is clear that it is a ridge, not a depression) and indeed, an old beat up, branchless Radaelli that my club had some years ago was also a ridge. However, I don't care for their Pecoraro guard.
Negrini also sells Radaelli and Pecoraro guards - and I like the looks of those, but they're pricy, and don't have a backstrap availible.
Edit for clarity: The Darkwood blade I simply cannot comment on beyond saying it looks a bit long - as for the quality, if its as nice as the couple Darkwood rapiers I've handled, it'd be nice indeed. I think they've got a good solid concept going, but it needs some refinement to really hit the nail on the head. I don't want to be overly hard or critical, but there is a pretty small range of variation that can be allowed before the subjective handling and function starts to change.
Chris Holzman
River City Fencing Club
Wichita, KS
Last edited by Chris Holzman on Thu 29 Sep, 2005 10:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Joe Yurgil
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| Posted: Thu 29 Sep, 2005 8:23 am Post subject: |
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Actually I was refering to the blade itself, not the hilt. I also see that there are signifcant proplems with the hilt though, pity really.
I know that you are a fan of the Radaelli sabre, Chris, so I will say this. Don't even waste your money on the Negrini hilt. I saw one and it was a peice of crap to put it mildly. The knuckle bow was a thin aluminum which had the correct ridge but bent very easily and the ring was poorly attached (it kept comming loose) to the whole ensemble.
What I am thinking though is getting the Darkwood blade and perhaps using a figure eight guard with something else for the grip (I'm not sure what would work here). A backstrap is nice but ultimatly, not intrinsically nesissary for fencing like a good blade (with the proper WAB, length, strength, and bend) is.
The common problem to any choice we (classical sabreurs) make though is that it could turn out to be an expensive mistake. One person I know thought about using a schlager blade, after much disscussion about it. When it finnally came to fruition the thing was like wielding a crowbar with a severe case of point heavyitis.  This is what made me think of the Darkwood sabre with a different hilt.
Companies usually respond to their customers though in the sense that they make it right so people will buy it or people won't buy it and they revise or stop making it. Perhaps we can hope Darkwood and Hanwei will do this, or other companies planning on this sort of line will learn from their predesessor's mistakes.
Sjá, þar sé ek föður minn.
Sjá, þar sé ek móður mina ok systur mina ok bróður minn.
Sjá, þar sé ek allan minn frændgarð.
Sjá, kalla þeim tíl min.
Biðja mér at taka minn stað hjá þeim í sölum Valhallar, þar drengiligr menn munu lifa allan aldr.
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Chris Holzman
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| Posted: Thu 29 Sep, 2005 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| Joe Yurgil wrote: | Actually I was refering to the blade itself, not the hilt. I also see that there are signifcant proplems with the hilt though, pity really.
I know that you are a fan of the Radaelli sabre, Chris, so I will say this. Don't even waste your money on the Negrini hilt. I saw one and it was a peice of crap to put it mildly. The knuckle bow was a thin aluminum which had the correct ridge but bent very easily and the ring was poorly attached (it kept comming loose) to the whole ensemble.
What I am thinking though is getting the Darkwood blade and perhaps using a figure eight guard with something else for the grip (I'm not sure what would work here). A backstrap is nice but ultimatly, not intrinsically nesissary for fencing like a good blade (with the proper WAB, length, strength, and bend) is.
The common problem to any choice we (classical sabreurs) make though is that it could turn out to be an expensive mistake. One person I know thought about using a schlager blade, after much disscussion about it. When it finnally came to fruition the thing was like wielding a crowbar with a severe case of point heavyitis. This is what made me think of the Darkwood sabre with a different hilt.
Companies usually respond to their customers though in the sense that they make it right so people will buy it or people won't buy it and they revise or stop making it. Perhaps we can hope Darkwood and Hanwei will do this, or other companies planning on this sort of line will learn from their predesessor's mistakes. |
Good to know reference the Negrini - they look good, but if they're not up to snuff.. forget it.
Reference the backstrap - no, its not 100% necessary, although it helps, as you can get weight where it's needed, and dispersed better, than with a big ugly ball pommel. Still, it can be worked around easily enough.
If you're just looking for a decent sabre guard, I'd suggest looking into one of the steel guards from Triplette. It is, or was, about $55.00, is hefty, etc. My maestro has had one for the last 20 years that is still going as good as the day it was made.
The hilt on the Hanwei Radaelli is very solid and well done - I think it'll last. I don't care for the blade, as I've said.
I agree about the schlager blades - I've fenced with an old AmFence pecoraro (10 years old or so) mounted with a schlager, and its exactly like you described - yucky.
Chris Holzman
River City Fencing Club
Wichita, KS
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