[Gavin Kisebach]

Patrick,

Thats quite the outfit, very well executed. Now I have to ask:

1 what's the history on painting helms and spear hafts?
2 does painting help preserve mild steel?
3 Is that a limited practice, the painting of the helm, or was it widespread over a long period of time?
4 what kind of tinctures have you seen, and can you provide any historical pics?
5 (totally unrelated) where do you get your puttees?

Again, great outfit, very cool. Just what I needed to get off my... chair... and finish my Dane outfit.

[Patrick Kelly]

[Gavin Kisebach]

Now that you mention it, I have seen painted armor in Osprey books and wondered at it before, but the very idea of painting over an expensive helmet makes me clench. The concept is logical, but I've been told (possibly by questionable sources) that paint doesn't protect against rust.

Hmm. Guess I'd better call Rustoleum and tell them this, they'll be rather upset.

I guess I've been conditioned to believe that part of the beauty of the equipment is the shiny metal itself, whereas to a period soldier, it was just (very important) equipment. Do you have ant more detailed pics, if it's not too much trouble?

thanks

[Gavin Kisebach]

That is to say, pics of your helm.

[Jean Thibodeau]

Gavin;

Hmmmmm, paint doesn't protect against rust ! ( Not blaming you, as you say the source is questionable. )

Just as an example: Lets take two ocean going steel hulled ships and paint one and leave the other in the white; which one do you think will still be afloat after years spent in sea water !

Now paint isn't 100% protective as ships have to be repainted and maintained often I think.

Or, take a car and don't paint it, see how long it would last in a Québec winter on salted roads!

[Patrick Kelly]

[Patrick Kelly]

[Patrick Kelly]

[David Lindberg]

I think that both aesthetics may have been seen in the past. Both the garish color, and the shiny metal. If this is the case, then one might say that, for example, the desire by British soldiers of the 19th and 19th centuries to have their gun barrels in the white, and burnished with ramrods could in fact be an extension of the medieval view of shining steel as being fitting for a warrior or somesuch. I should not have to point out the Landesknechts to give an example of medieval and renaissance fascination with color.

[Gavin Kisebach]

I hadn't thought of the social importance of color when dyes are limited. Of course I dont think of color as a status symbol because dyes are so cheap. I think that in that context if purple and say, orange are difficult and or expensive to acquire and i can get them, of course I'm going to put them on my armor no matter what my color wheel says.

[Anton de Vries]

Judging by my own reactions I think Patrick is setting a trend here.
I expect to see many more examples of painted repro armor in the not too distant future.

The hardest part is picking the color(s) I guess. I like black but I'd probably be one of the 68% that wants to be 'the' black knight.
Decisions...decisions...

[Daniel Parry]

I think Patrick's comments about aesthetics and coordination of colour in prior ages are very true. I was certainly surprised as a schoolboy to learn that the beautifully restrained stone temples of the Parthenon, Sparta and Delphi were actually covered in their original state by garish primary colours and gold - the flutes of the columns striped in an array of colours. Colour is visible and makes a statement either for identification or for wealth. So this was proper decoration for these temples. On another thread I was asking about colours in clothing because as I understand it a lot of the modern subtle colours only started to appear in the later middle ages largely from the Islamic world so colours on armour too may have been a combination of fairly loud primary colours.

Certainly as far back as the Spartans they were known to paint the capital lamda letter on their shields to signify Lakedaimon (or 'Sparta'). Decoration for indentity and impression was recognised pretty early I'd think. The Japanese too had some very colourful armour.

Daniel

[Chuck Wyatt]

Do you think different countries would have color preferences?
Chuck

[Daniel Parry]

I think the question about different countries and colour preferences is an interesting one. I suppose there are two main questions there. Firstly the simple question of availability of colour: if one country had an available source like saffron for yellow but no woad for blue they might have a lot of yellow but not much blue etc .

The more important question i guess is the identification of country or rather recognisable social unit. In order to use a predominant colour it would seem logical for the colour to have an association with something, like the red white and blue of US, UK and French flags. Were the British uniforms traditionally red because of the red element of the George Cross or the red of the lions rampant on flags or the French uniforms blue because of the blue background on a lot of Fleur de Lis flags or the flags of the new Republic? A uniforms expert probably can answer that (which I'm not) but the essence is that there would probably be an association with a group. But although we now are readily able to accept ideas of nationhood on the Monte Video principles of homogenity of race, language, social system or culture, that was probably an anathema to a lot of earlier cultures. In a feudal system your alliegance would have been to your lord primarily and then his to the king but the idea of homogeneous nation was far less developed I would think. So I suppose my 2 cents answer is that feudal groups would have a colour or pattern preference due to their arms or symbols of family but that colours of the nation as a whole would be less likely exist to because the 'country ' concept was not developed in the way it is now. But the colours of a feudal family I suppose might be analagous to modern national colours just that the 'country' or unit was smaller. Other people may have knowledge or evidence that colour association existed beyond the feudal relationship to a broader concept in Norman times. Be interesting to hear if they do.

2 cents

Daniel

[Sean Flynt]

I'm waiting for someone to do some historically appropriate paint work on a sallet. The surviving examples are pretty spectacular.

[Patrick Kelly]

[Hisham Gaballa]

[Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom]

[Russ Thomas]

Looking at the link that Steve Fabert posted about painted sallets, I started reading the old topic again with renewed interest as one does. However ,I noticed this piece, purported to be a painted sallet, it is however an etched and enamelled sallet c.1550-55 ? made by Kunz Lochner of Nuremberg, for Prince Nikolaus IV.

http://www.100megsfree3.com/kragaxe/armee/Helmets.html

It is a beautiful helmet though

Regards as ever,

Russ


PS. Sorry a little bit off topic here, my apologies for that.
_________________

[Nathan Robinson]

Check out This Topic for painted examples of the "Black Sallet" type of helmet.