Use of thumb ring on Daggers -- myArmoury.com

Jean Thibodeau · Posted: Mon 18 Jul, 2005 7:40 pm Post subject: Use of thumb ring on Daggers

I'm wondering about the use of the one side ring on many lefthand daggers and how they were used or useful ?

If I'm not mistaken they are often called thumb rings: Is this because the rings main purpose is to protect the thumb if the blade is held with the edges parallel to the ground ( Side to side ) with the thumb held on the ring side of the guard.
The ring would then protect the top and sides of the thumb.

If held in the left hand with the blade edges vertical the " thumb ring " would act as a ring guard and blocking a blade from sliding the outside of the blade onto the left hand.

I haven't researched the use of the lefthand dagger in combination with the Rapier or sword and I haven't come across much mention of how it was used in casual reading. ( Actually the thought just occurred to me that I don't remember any topics about dagger use here , alone or in combination with other weapons. )

Nathan Robinson · myArmoury Admin

It's called a "side ring" or an anneau.

A side ring serves the purpose of creating an obstacle so that another blade won't travel up the blade and onto the hilt, hurting the hand.

A thumb-ring has the purpose of being there for your thumb to wrap around, creating leverage on the cut and helping create a more secure grasp of the hilt.

This is a thumb-ring, as shown on a schiavona:

Jean Thibodeau · Posted: Mon 18 Jul, 2005 8:58 pm Post subject:

Thanks Nathan: Side ring makes sense and thumb ring is something " other ", what may have cause my confusion is that a dagger may at times be used with the blade horizontal with the thumb being on the flat of the blade or ricasso: the side ring just looks as if it might also be used as I described. ( Secondary use, not the main reason it is there. )

Quite possible that a knowledgeable user of a lefthand dagger would never do the above.

Thanks for the explanation about what a thumb ring really is: As a left hander myself I can see how a rapier with a thumb ring would have to be made for the left hand if one wanted to use it.

I guess one could still use the right handed version rapier with the left hand but would loose any advantage that the thumb ring would bring.

In conversation with Craig about the Cavalier Rapier I think he said he might be able to make the thumb ring for lefthanded use. I think he meant just modifying the thumb ring and not a full mirror version sword for a lefthanded person: The full lefthanded option might be better. Must admit that at the time I had no clear idea about exactly what the thumb ring looked like and were it was on the Rapier. ( Just asking questions of Craig as I have not decided on a Rapier acquisition yet ! Oh, the town guard sword is also a possible acquisition eventually. )

My preference is for ambidextrous weapons in general as right hand use remains an option.

Nathan Robinson · myArmoury Admin

Styles of fence that utilize the thumb on the flat of the dagger blade would have the thumb placed on the opposite side of the blade than the side-ring. I've seen people holding these daggers with their thumb through the side-ring and I can only shake my head and wonder why they're doing that.

Cole Sibley · Posted: Mon 18 Jul, 2005 9:17 pm Post subject:

This may have been my first glimpse at a 'real' thumb ring (side rings as well, I suppose), I was very taken by it though I wasn't brave enought to try and build one into my own hilt: http://www.myArmoury.com/review_pmc_hh.html

Jean Thibodeau · Posted: Mon 18 Jul, 2005 9:20 pm Post subject:

Thanks again Nathan Big Grin

And "why are they doing that " is exactly like why I would have done it: Didn't know any better ! Blush

Well it all makes sense now. Big Grin

Bill Grandy · myArmoury Team

Bill Grandy · myArmoury Team

Jean Thibodeau · Posted: Wed 27 Jul, 2005 7:09 pm Post subject: Saxon Dagger arrives WOO HOO !

Just received my A & A Saxon dagger " WOO HOO " : Now I can confirm that breaking your thumb would be the probable outcome of mistaking the side ring for some sort of guard for the thumb, and the ring would not protect the tip of your thumb from being cut off anyway. I can still see where thinking of these as thumb guard would happen without information to the contrary: It just LOOKS as this would be the rings' function.

Used properly the side ring also seems to give a large area of contact with the index finger side of the hand and adds to the possible power of a thrust when used in a hammer grip or the reverse ice pic grip i.e. Gives you support and confidence in using maximum force without fear of your hand slipping onto the blade and the increased contact area should make the thrust more comfortable.

Considering that the work involved making a dagger like this is very close to what it would be for a much bigger sword the price of these A & A daggers is a real bargain

As a mini review I can say that I was surprised by how slim this blade is as the Picts on the A & A site does not give you much to compare it to. The blade 1 3/16" wide at the guard and tapers in a strait line to 1/2" wide at about 1" from the tip were it curves in an elliptical point with a sharp tip. The tip is not an easily damaged needle as it would be if the edges met in a longer but strait continuation of the edges. The Blade seems to be about 1/4" thick near the guard and distal tapers to about 1/8" near the tip.
The edges are sword like with almost imperceptible secondary bevels except at the very tip where the blade curves to a point were they gradually become wider.

The point of balance is just behind the guard where the index finger would be: Sharp enough to make nasty draw cuts but not balance to be able to chop at all. The elliptical tip should be able to make good tip cuts: This is primarily a thrusting weapon when used alone and a parrying dagger when used with a sword or rapier.

Oh, I choose to buy the "fancy " scabbard with metal fitting: They look good and protect the tip and throat of the scabbard.
At the back there is a rectangular belt ring that work well when just thrust through behind a belt at the small of the back: I might add a leather lace through this ring as a safety to avoid losing the scabbard.

The sword fittings are very clean, I assume, castings. HHHHHMMMMM ...... Rondel Dagger maybe soon. Wink

( Edited because I wrote 1 1/8" where I should have written 1/2" at 1" from the tip, sorry ! )

Gordon Frye · Posted: Wed 27 Jul, 2005 8:11 pm Post subject:

Jean;

AAAHHH!!! Your killing me with all the new toys your getting! Langue de Boeuf, Saxon Dagger, now your talking Rondel and the Cavalier! EEEK! Eek!

Good choices, I might add! Big Grin

Cheers,

Gordon

Jean Thibodeau · Posted: Wed 27 Jul, 2005 8:55 pm Post subject:

Gordon;

Well, some of these I'm ONLY talking about for NOW ! But they are on the short list ! Not everything is expensive: The Analace and Chopper from MRL are inexpensive and I hope good enough for the price.

And then I have to budget for more armour or shields from Mercenary's tailor, high boots from Revival Enterprises or books from Chivalry Bookshelf etc ......... Razz

Well I do have to prioritize though which ones to get first : You have to be careful that an expensive item doesn't BURN your entire toy budget or that too many inexpensive purchases keep you from getting that special custom piece Sad

David Evans · Posted: Thu 28 Jul, 2005 2:52 am Post subject: A Casual aside

On the subject of thrusting the dagger thro the belt at the small of the back I just thought I'd mention Derrike's range of woodcuts covering the English army in Ireland between 1567 to 1571. They' re a fascinating group of images full of little details that can help put together the right bits. There's a few images showing some deteil on sword belts, hilts shown generally reflect rapier style guards, the style of clothing worn. The mail worn by Border Horse, and daggers.

Every single image that shows a dagger pretty much shows the same style of dagger, straight quillons, thumb ring, large-ish blade as against the size of body image, all seemingly worn thrust or attached to the sword belt across the small of the back and all worn with the hilt to the right side of the body.

I can draw my dagger with ease, with my right hand in that position. Or I can draw my sword with my right hand, I can not reach the dagger with my left hand at all! I'm guessing that no common soldier is or has been trained in the use of sword and dagger and that the dagger is more useful right hand drawn in close combat, such as Push of Pike.

The other option is, of course stylistic depiction.

Aaron Schnatterly · Posted: Thu 28 Jul, 2005 5:37 am Post subject:

Gordon Frye · Posted: Thu 28 Jul, 2005 8:06 am Post subject: Re: A Casual aside

David Evans · Posted: Wed 03 Aug, 2005 2:28 am Post subject: Pictures

Gordon
Thanks for that...Useful little link!

By the way...Does anyone know of a good source for a pattern for a rapier hanger?

Gordon Frye · Posted: Wed 03 Aug, 2005 3:40 pm Post subject:

David;

Glad to be of some help! I went "Halliluia!" when a friend clued me in to that site! So much great detail of English soldiers from the late-16th Century that it isn't funny. Now to find a site that does the same for the Funeral March of Sir Philip Sydney... Big Grin

Here's a photo of a really nice, high-toned sword hanger. I note that the construction is such that the buckles slide downward onto the sword, and there are no tongues to them, thus the attachment points for the straps to the buckles must be from the lower end of each strap, and the buckle rides town towards itself, as it were. Richard Lanni, of Florida casts some magnificent buckles for such, and has a diagram of how HE does them. Looks right to me. I'll try to dig up his email address for you. He doesn't do on-line orders, but will send you a catalogue, then he can let you know what he has in stock via email, then you send him a check.

Anyway, again, glad you found that site helpful!

Cheers,

Gordon

David Evans · Posted: Mon 08 Aug, 2005 7:03 am Post subject: Thats pretty

Thanks for that. That is pretty....Think I can get the bits made. It's just what do they look like when put together! I'm also looking at dutch painting, such as ter Borch for one to see how sword belts are made. There are clues but it's the "How does that go?" that would help!

Gordon Frye · Posted: Wed 10 Aug, 2005 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: Thats pretty

David Evans · Posted: Thu 11 Aug, 2005 2:41 am Post subject: Yep....

Yep...That's my lot...We've done about 6 events in the Low Counties now. Two in the town of Geertruidenberg near Breda and the rest across Flander. We've had more events to other places and into Germany now. It's fun......and very different to reenacting in the UK!

Gordon Frye · Posted: Thu 11 Aug, 2005 8:40 am Post subject:

David;

How cool! Must be really nifty "Campaigning in Flanders"! BTW, the kit that they show in the web page looks really top notch, good to see! And I know that this is rather highjacking poor Jean's thread here, but how is it transporting your matchlocks throughout the EU? Any difficulties, or is it just "Right, show your papers and off you go" kind of deal? Last I checked the Europeans don't have much problem with blackpowder arms, and still classify them differently from modern stuff, while Britain doesn't.

Thanks, and good luck with the campaign, it sounds like a LOT of fun!

Cheers,

Gordon