Hi all,
I'm new here and have a question or two.
Some of my ancestors (Drake Line) lived in Musbury England in the mid to end of the 1500's. I have photos of a trip I took there years ago.

http://www.boydhouse.com/darryl/drake/
Also
http://www.boydhouse.com/michelle/drake/index.html

These are photos of "full sized" statues of them inside a church in Musbury England. All three of them are in dress armor and have swords on. All three of them were Knights.

I would like to ID the swords they were using

Also I would like to have made a reproduction of one of the swords (possibly). They appear to be all the same in size and style. I was wondering if any of you might know where to find someone that can do this type of work. Remember it is not going into battle, just hung on my den wall. LOL (I hope!)

Maybe just a little history of some of these guys might help a little.
These three Knights were more then just country gentlemen. They were very prominent in the Courts of England at the time. The one in the middle on the photos was my 11th great grandfather Sir Bernard Drake. He was the “Admiral of the Navy” of England for Queen Elizabeth. He is the one that “boxed Sir Francis Drake in the ear” in Queen Elisabeth’s court. The fight was over the use of the “Drake” crest and coat of arms that Sir Francis Drake did not have the right to use.
Of the three gentlemen, all were married to women who’s fathers were also Knights. I guess they all married well.
There are quite a few storied about these three generations of Knights. All of which are quite well documented. I don’t think they were just rich country gentlemen, but commanded ships and army’s.

All three of them Sir John, Sir Bernard, and Sir John esq. received their Knighthoods (for) in battle. Not just for their stations in life (there family names) as some did.

I’m not sure if this helps any, but I though it might help some in your evaluation of the swords.

Thank you again an I am looking forward to your comments!!

Darryl

Sorry, I have not used this type of forum before. I might have messed the URL's up a bit.

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Hi Darryl,

Glad to see you here. I'm the crazy person that's been posting to you at Net Sword. A couple of other snippets of information have come up from various sites.

The Drakes were never inducted into the ranks of the Order Of The Garter. They were obviously knights of peerage and Bernard may have be unique in his rank. John Esq is listed as a Lord through his marriage and all three had baronet status (through the land holding).
John Esq was evidently quite handy in proximity to Elizabeth I (she drafted him). Old John seems to have been a lawyer.

I ran across another good searchable text site today that I'll post up.

From that UK history archive, is a good account of Cromwell's installation ceremony.
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/
It recounts a sword given of civilian fashion, as opposed to military because his service was to be civil in nature.

I would still be interested to find if there were uniform swords for knights of peerage. Then again, it is also possible it is just art.

I'll pop back with that catalog index page, it's another goody.
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/default.asp

Cheers

GC

Given the date of the late 1500s, the single-handed proportions, and the armor depicted in the sculpture, I't's most likely a "Type-XVIII" sword. A Type-XV sword would also be possible, but would be outdated by the late 1500s.
Here is an short explanation of the sword classification system developed by Ewart Oakeshott:
http://www.algonet.se/%7Eenda/oakeshott_eng.htm.
Here is a Type-XVIII sword produced (or soon to be produced) by Albion Armorers:
http://albion-swords.com/swords/albion/nextge...-xviii.htm

If you want a close replica made, your options are:
1) Go "full custom." Few swordsmiths could probably do the type justice. It would be very expensive ($2,000 or more) and the wait list would be a couple of years at least.
2) Buy the "Kingmaker" type-XVIII from Albion when it comes out. This is probably the best and most practical alternative. The hilt will be somwhat different from that of the effigy, but it willl be a good example of the type of sword your ancestor carried. The swords in Albion's NG line are designed by swordsmith Peter Johnsson, who documents original swords.
3) Discuss getting a modified "Kingmaker" from Albion. They have been known to occasionally undertake custom hiltings on their stock blades. I can't give you any idea of cost, so you'd have to discuss it with them.

Regards,
Brian M

Hello Darryl

Do you know the date of the actual construction of the monument? My inclination is that it is later than the end of the 16th C. Probably more in line with the later 17th C. There was a trend to emulate "Medieval" styles of sword at that time (post restoration) and these look much along these lines. They were late Elizabethan interpretations of what a medieval sword would be like. Also as all three are the same it is obvious the monument was done near the end of the line of these three and would probably bear little resemblance to the swords actually worn by the individuals in life. In fact many of these monuments were errected a generation or two after the individuals depicted sometimes even more.

This is the same period of time when many "swords of ancient heros" were produced and several are still on display as the real thing. The families of the day where quite happy to create a little ancient foundation for themselves by finding/creating some artifacts to illustrate the illustrious blood line.

Hope this helps.

Best
Craig

I'll second Craig's comment about the problem of when the effigies were made.

This is my area of special interest, and it's underserved by modern manufacturers, though A&A comes closer than anybody else as far as in-stock production pieces are concerned. I'm not aware of any production swords, from A&A, Albion or anybody else, that come anywhere near the simple cross design shown here, which seems common ca. 1600-1630. Arms & Armor has a lovely rapier of the early 17th c. ( http://www.arms-n-armor.com/2000/catalog/item190.html ) but it's not what you're looking for. If you want something off-the-shelf that would represent the type of weapon your Elizabethan ancestors would have worn, I'd say the A&A rapier would be an outstanding choice.

But I think the swords shown on those effigies, assuming they are not merely crude approximations of medieval swords, are most likely to be like the cross-hilted swords shown in the middle of this article:

http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_engswords.html

I woudn't be surprised if you could get a plain piece of this style for under $1,000. If I were having this piece done, there would simply be no question about who I'd approach. This is E.B. Erickson's area of expertise and interest, and he has both handled and owned swords of this era. His rates are quite reasonable, and you can be certain that the resulting weapon will be meticulously researched and crafted–a one-of-a-kind heirloom. Read more about Eljay here:
http://eljay.myArmoury.com/

I speak from personal experience as I am fortunate enough to have two of Eljay's creations in my collection. After Eljay, I'd approach Arms & Armor, probably expecting to pay a bit more for what also would be an outstanding weapon (Eljay doesn't depend on this work for a living, the A&A folks do).

The clothing and armour of the effigies certainly are of style seen in in the last decades of the 16th centuiry and the very first couple of years in the 17th Century. The same applies to the how the hair and beards of the effgies are styled.
While I'm no expert on swords i have seen very similar swords in a very 'medieval' style as part of the equipment of Englsish men-at-arms as lat as the mid 16th century. the style is quite common among soldiers of the 1540's and I've even seen a fully armoured men-at-arms dated to 1570 equiped with such as sword. The same kind of rather plain swords also apear in depictions of French Gendarmes of the 1560's and Jost Aman made a print of German reiters who had longswords of a style that to looks more to belong in the years aroudn 1500 than in 1584 hanign next to their up to date pistols.

Hi All,
I apreciate all your efforts as I am learning a lot about this family.

I can tell you this much about the monument. It was constructed by John Drake esq. or the third one in that line of Knights (the one on the far right). It was done in his life time but I can't say beginning or end. He was born "about" 1566 and died 11 Apr 1628. I believe I read it was done just after his father Sir Bernard (one in the middle) died in 1611.

You're right , the cost of a stock sword which is just close to the right style is a little expensive for my tastes. But if it were a sword that clearly represented the swords they would have had, well that would make it a little easier to spend.

Even if I don't have one made, I and my family are learning a lot of valuable information on or ancestors, and that alone makes it worth it to us.

Thank you again!

Darryl Boyd

Those dates are perfect for the simple cross-hilted swords described in the article. Most or all of them are of the first third of the 17th c. I think you could get a plain, well-researched custom sword of this type for around what you'd pay for an in-stock piece from Albion or A&A ($700-$1,000). You'd want to have the family name/motto engraved on the blade, of course!

Now that would be something to treasure and pass down through new generations.

You have to decide whether your purpose is to have either a) a somewhat similar-looking cheap wallhangar with brass fittings or b) a real, functional sword.
If you want a real sword (production, not custom) you will have to accept that it isn't going to look exactly like what's on the effigy. The simple fact is, what your ancestor actually carried may or may not have looked anything like what is depicted on the effigy. Effigies sometimes (often?) were done in the style of the time they were finished, and may not represent what the subject actually wore.
My opinion is that you should do a little research into the type of sword he would have carried, and get at least a decent example of that type. I think it's a mistake to only consider a near-copy of what's on the effigy, but again, if your purpose is only a similar-looking wallhanger, then it's irrelevant.
It may be possible to find a cheap (less than $200-$300) sword with a similar-looking hilt. Good places to start:
Del Tin might be the most authentic "budget" swords. He has a fairly extensive lineup.
www.deltin.net
Another company to try is Museum Replicas Limited. They are somewhat cheaper and some pieces have a pretty decent reputation.
www.museumreplicas.com

Brian M

Brian mentioned MRL.....It occurs to me that the cheapest way to get a simple, cross hilted sword resembling the English style of ca. 1600-1630 (albeit with a single-edge blade) is to find a used MRL "Scottish Backsword" http://www.myArmoury.com/review_mrl_scot.html (place a "wanted" post in the classifieds here). Then see if A&A, Albion or some other reputable firm or independent craftsman will remove the siderings from that weapon and trim the cross accordingly. You'd probably want a wire wrap for the grip as well. If you're handy in the workshop, you could tackle all that yourself. I don't have any idea what the modification might cost you, but it would certainly be only a small fraction of what you'd pay for a full custom creation. You should be able to find the MRL sword for well under $200. Even if the modification costs you another $250, you'd have a unique and good quality sword for less than many folks pay for a production piece. It wouldn't be exactly right, historically, but it wouldn't cost you a small fortune, either.

Hi Darryl,

A few more quick searches brought up a page about the church and monument, with the inscriptions.
http://www.wissensdrang.com/stabb157.htm

One thing that's a bit distracting in the queries is the spelling Barnard vs Bernard ;) That and there were a lot of Drakes around.
The inscription for the parents of John esq does put the monument being built in that time frame.

"Here is the monument of Sr Bernard Drake Knt who had to wife Dame Garthrud the daughter of Bartholomew Fortesque of Filley Esq, by whom he had three sonnes and three daughters where of whear five living at his death viz; John, Hugh, Marie, Margaret, and Helen. He died th Xth of April 1586 and Dame Garthrud his iwfe was here buried the 12th of Februarii 1601. Unto the memory of whome John Drake Esq, Her Sonne hath set this monument. Ano 1611."

Sigh, one more edit. The inscription is also referenced on this page;
http://www.wyverngules.com/
Also of note on that page are some documents. There are four pages of scanned biography for Bernard (unfortnately some are very dark).
The file urls on this page are very trimmable for the indexes.

References for Bernard range from pirate logs (arrrrgh) to better descriptions of his privateering commission in 1584-85 He was detoured from a Roanoke mission and sent privateering to raid the fishing fleets off Newfoundland. He headquartered at St John. Upon returning from that, he recieved a knighthood from Eizabeth for these efforts.

Feel free to send private messages, or mail if I can be of further help. I don't want to eat up the board with genealogy talk.

I haven't found a portrait.

One more thought on the swords. In Elizabeth's proclamation of dress code and demeanor, made in 1562 The big thing is clothing but weapons get mentioned a couple of times.

This is abstracted but spurs, swords and daggers of gilt and decorative manner were not to be worn in court by those below the rank of knight.

That, the article here @ myArmoury and the gifting of swords to knights (even before this era) still makes me wonder if there weren't common patterns by the time of Elizabeth.

Cheers

GC

A quick and sloppy Photoshop modification makes my point about the MRL conversion. Although I've obliterated it here, the quillon block of the MRL features the same central swelling as the historic cross-hilted sword shown below it.

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