[Doug Gardner]

I have some questions regarding selecting a gambeson or arming jacket for a harness I'm putting together. I this might belong in two threads, but I thought I'd start with one.

My first question is about sizing. I want the gambeson to fit trimly, but don't want it to restrict shoulder and arm movement, and I'm a bit concerned about shrinkage. I'm looking specifically at the revival clothing cotton gambeson, and they list that the medium fits to 44inch chest and 40inch waist. The large is supposed to fit to 50inch chest and 46inch waist. I'm near the large end of the medium, but have relatively broad shoulders or long arms. Enough so that I always buy extra-large shirts. However, I know that the XL in a shirt is really larger than I need, but I have too many L size shirts where the cuffs won't reach anywhere near my wrists that I buy the XL. I'm sure you can read by now that I'm a bit nervous about buying a medium, but I don't want to unnecessarily buy a large and have to deal with extra padding bunching up under a breastplate or arm defenses. My specific question is: does anybody have enough experience with the cotton Revival Clothing gambeson to make a recommendation as to whether I should get the medium (I still have a couple of inches in their size guidelines) or go with the large? What about shrinkage? They say it is machine washable, but how much should I expect it to shrink?

OK, now my second question is more general, but perhaps more pertinent to the Historical Arms Talk forum. That question is one of appropriateness. Let me describe my goals in assembling the harness, and then we can talk about what would be historically appropriate/acceptable vs. inappropirate or anachronistic. My goal is to put together an early plate harness (roughly early 15th century), but out of components which could be used to make a 14th century or earlier harness. So, I have mercenary tailors 14th/15th century leg and arm defenses. I'd like to be able to use these with either a 15th century plate body defenses, sallet, gauntlets and greaves, OR with riveted mail, churburg-style 7 piece breast, houndskull bascinette, etc. From there, I could eliminate the breastplate and change helmets, and eliminate leg and arm defenses to give a fair attempt at a variety of other periods. My assumption has been that the gambeson would be the more adaptable arming garment to wear underneath either plate or mail, and for a variety of time periods. Am I correct? Or should I just go with something like the Historic Enterprises arming jacket (unpadded, as far as I can tell) for the 15th century harness, and add voiders, gussets, and a skirt? What if my tastes change and I decide I'd like to put together something like a late 15th or 16th century full plate armor? At that point would all bets be off, and will I wish I just commissioned a full suit from someone, or could many of the components be adapted by just adding a different helm or spaulders?

OK, now looking at this I'm wondering about its coherence. However, at the heart is a request for guidance as to the preferable arming garment to wear, given my goal of flexibility, and the best fit for that garment. Or, am I simply off-base, and would I be happier if I toss out this misguided attempt at flexibility and focus on a single harness to represent what would have been representative in a specific battle? I know that none of you can really answer that last question, but I expect some of you have tried exactly what I'm describing, and learned much from the attempt. How did it turn out for you, and can I learn anything from your money (errrr.... I mean EXPERIENCE)?

Thanks,

--Doug

[Gordon Clark]

My opinon is that unless you are lucky to be exactly the right size (the size of whatever model the production garmet was made for) an arming jacket must be made (or tailored) specifically for you. 15th century garmets (doublets or arming jackets for example) are generally very tailored in fit - more so even than modern day suits. It is very difficult to get the right fit without having a garmet made specifically for you. An arming garmet needs to support the armor you wear over it and distribute the weight over your body - if it does not fit just right (sort of a "second skin" kind of fit), it won't be able to do its job.

Sorry - I know it it way easier to just order the thing "off the shelf".

Gordon

[Doug Gardner]

[Alexi Goranov]

[Jared Smith]

Arms and Armour web site had this to say under the category of aketon (listing gambeson as the same type of item.)

Most of the illustrations from the 14th century show many buttons or laces up the front, and there are a few examples that feature a high collar to assist in the defense of the neck. 14th century Aketons were generally cut wide around the arm holes in a manner that followed the line of the breastplate or cuirass. These extra-large arm-holes served to grant complete mobility for a full range of arm motion. A workable pattern for a 14th century model can be found in Chronique: The Journal of Chivalry #2.

Major Developments during the 14th century
1300-1350 Knights wore the haubergeon over their aketon
1350-1400 Aketon shortened and begins to be worn under the jupon, sometimes the only body defense. Strongly wasp-waisted form common to the period.
1350-1400 Sleeves were sometimes "banana sleeved" or ballooning out or were narrow so as to fit under the arm harness. Both seem popular for the entire period.

Some articles I have seen discriminate between aketon and gambeson, stating that aketon was always worn underneath, while gambeson was originally worn as the outer garment. There does not seem to be any solid consensus on this point and most are using aketon and gambeson interchangeably. There are surviving sparring gambesons from several kings, and they do appear rather dressy as if meant to be the outer garment (makes sense in the context of king sparring in front of an audience.) In terms of languistics, there are claims of "gambeson" being derived from earlier padded coats (including ones with leather on the exterior) which were worn alone as the armour. Supposedly this actually evolves into the gipon/ variation of pourpoint with the practice of it actually being the armour no longer the case. Probably a "chicken or the egg came first" type issue.

Ready made nice ones made of linen do not appear to be cheap.

[W. R. Reynolds]

Doug,

I recomend that you get a fitted arming doublet. I have an HE earlier model that I wear under 15th C plate and yes it has some light padding. The extensive lacing that you see on the HE stuff is supposed to fit sort of like a girdle around your waist and supports the weight of the leg armour at the points so your shoulders don't have to do the whole job. The fit is tight up to about the navel which is where you bend anyway so it does not really restrict movement in that fashion. Above the waist the doublet blouses out some and has a wide arm area under the pits to give freedom of movement through the upper body area. Breast and back buckle over the shoulders and around the waist, arms and pauldrons / spaulders attach to points on the arm and neck. Voiders etc. will be a personal choice. What ever harness you decide to buy make sure that you get measured for it while you are wearing the foundation garment.

Alexi mentions some concern about over heating. While 'how a man shall be armed' says to wear nothing under the arming doublet, I wear a linen shirt. After you sweat into it a bit it helps to keep you cool. That blousing effect of the upper body acts like a bellows and you get a bit of air down through the neck opening, hits the wet shirt and you have a sort of primitive swamp cooler. I have worn this in some very hot places (Las Vegas in October) while doing living history demos and while I have been warm at times it was not unbearable. Everyone is different and you will have to discover what your own tolerances are. Drink plenty of water.

Hope this helps.

[David Evans]

[Doug Gardner]

Thanks for all the input, everyone! You've given me some good things to think about.

[Manfred Fritz]

I believe there might be an other option than altering a off the rack garment.
I have got my arming doublet made by Tomasz Slebioda-Matulewicz of [url]http://www.matuls.pl
it is very nicely made and custom tailored. He is a very nice gent who often posts on the Arador Armour Library.
The only bone I have to pick is that the front of the doublet is fastened by eyes and hooks, which makes the closing somewhat unsatisfactory. On the other hand as I intend to fit arming points anyway, I will add a few for the front closure as well.

[Jean Thibodeau]

Doug;

I have a Revival Clothing linen Gambison and I am happy with it: Maybe I'm just lucky but it does seem to fit tightly around the waist and arms and more loosely around the chest. ( Linen outer shell, cotton lining and padding. )

The sleeves are quite long as I usually have to fold the cuff back if I want to see the back of my hand: The sleeves reach the knuckles of the hand giving some protection there. The sleeves taper to the wrist and do feel like they hug the arms firmly but not tightly.
Oh, no pulling when lifting my arms up over my head, seems to work o.k. with hauberk alone and in combination with the Mercenary tailor's 14th century arms: They seem to stay put with the gambison under but would shift around excessively if worn over a loose shirt no matter how tightly I tied the straps.

In your post you mention the medium and large sizes, but checking the Revival Clothing site, I see 4 size options not 3.
( Unless you were looking at their older and less expensive all cotten version )

They do seem to recommend going for the next higher size if one is close to the maximum dimensions stated for a size.

I choose the Large and I have a 42" waist and 45" chest with 17" arms at 5' 9" ( just to give you an idea. )
The medium would NOT have worked for me and the XL would be too big I think! ( Shrinkage might be a factor and they recommend dry cleaning and if machine washed to NOT machine dry. )

Now, a fitted gambison would be ideal and others who have given their opinion have much more experience wearing armour and fighting in it than me, but I thought my less experienced opinion would still be useful as I have direct experience with the Revival gambison.

Maybe you should check on their return or exchange policy so that you could exchange the medium for a large or XL if the medium is to tight for you. ( Being able to try them on first before buying would be ideal. )

[W. R. Reynolds]

Doug,

HE is local to me and it only took one fitting. I have known Jeff and Gwen for a long time and they are very good at what they do and are willing to give help over the phone for measurements if you hit a sitcking point or have any specific questions.

[Mike West]

Gentlemen, are we talking about a padded jacket, or one with multiple layers of linen? It seems that the Revival Clothing Gambeson is the former. Is their any advantage to either style?

Also, where could I go in either North Carolina, or Virginia to find someone who could make one for me? Or, perhaps I could make one myself? I think one of the fellows in Steven Hand's group has a pattern, and instructions online, but the arms are tied to the torso part, and their is no underarm padding.

[Blaz Berlec]

Yup, getting the right size of gambeson can be tricky.

That's me in a brand new Matuls gambeson, which is going back for some retailoring.