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C.L. Miller
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 Posted: Fri 24 Jun, 2005 5:13 am Post subject: "waisted" grip on Viking type I |
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Hello all! I've become very taken of late with the "waisted" grip shown on Albion's illustration of their forth-coming Berserker sword, which seems to have some echoes of my favorite hilt, the Behmer migration type 3. I realize that "waisted grip" is usually used to refer to a form of grip found on hand-and-a-half swords, but I was uncertain how else to refer to this - it looks somewhat like a cinched waist... so... (if anyone knows the correct terminology, please correct me)
I was wondering if any of you might have some more information on this particular grip form, how common it was, whether it might be covered by wire or cord wrap, did it appear with any other hilt types beyond Petersen's type I, where was it in use etc.
My own resources are fairly limited and I had not come across it previous to seeing Peter Johnsson's design.
I'm asking both out of curiosity and in the interest of researching a custom sword I am commissioning, which may incorporate such a grip with a type H hilt and Geibig 3 or 4 blade... pending further research and subject to changes of heart. Any thoughts on the matter are very welcome. Thanks!
-Christopher Liebtag Miller
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C.L. Miller
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| Posted: Sat 25 Jun, 2005 1:04 am Post subject: |
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Well, I've had the very nice illustration of the semi-wasted grip of the Valkyrja's hilt pointed out to me... I'm embarrassed to have over-looked that before (obviously the grip is not limited to a particular hilt type). I'd still be very interested if anyone has any photos/illustrations of historical examples handy.
Thanks!
-Christopher Liebtag Miller
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Sat 25 Jun, 2005 2:04 am Post subject: |
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It's late and I'm quite tired.. heading off to bed..
But here is a photo of a Viking-era sword with a "centrally tapered" grip.
Original sword hilt, located in the National Museum of Denmark, and basis for the Del Tin 2102 replica sword:
Click photo for full-sized version
While most Viking-era swords have lost their grips from the passing of time, there are some examples to be seen in Ian Peirce's Swords of the Viking Age. I highly recommend this book.
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sat 25 Jun, 2005 2:11 am Post subject: Re: "waisted" grip on Viking type I |
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| C.L. Miller wrote: | Hello all! I've become very taken of late with the "waisted" grip shown on Albion's illustration of their forth-coming Berserker sword, which seems to have some echoes of my favorite hilt, the Behmer migration type 3. I realize that "waisted grip" is usually used to refer to a form of grip found on hand-and-a-half swords, but I was uncertain how else to refer to this - it looks somewhat like a cinched waist... so... (if anyone knows the correct terminology, please correct me)
I was wondering if any of you might have some more information on this particular grip form, how common it was, whether it might be covered by wire or cord wrap, did it appear with any other hilt types beyond Petersen's type I, where was it in use etc.
My own resources are fairly limited and I had not come across it previous to seeing Peter Johnsson's design.
I'm asking both out of curiosity and in the interest of researching a custom sword I am commissioning, which may incorporate such a grip with a type H hilt and Geibig 3 or 4 blade... pending further research and subject to changes of heart. Any thoughts on the matter are very welcome. Thanks!
-Christopher Liebtag Miller |
Dear Christopher,
Surviving grips are rare on viking swords. When they survive thay are usually bronze (cast hollow) or just the surviving wire binding (consiting of twisted or un-twisted silver, gold or copper alloy wire). There are a few swords that span the whole viking period that have surviving grips of this type. It is also common during the period preceding the viking age:
There are also grips surviving on swords that are the predecessors of the viking swords (swords from the Vendel period 550-800 AD). These are more often made of hollow bronze, or have bronze mounts in each end (and sometimes the middle) of the grip, showing us the shape of the grip. In some cases bone or wood grip has survived to show us what they were like.
From this material we can see that this grip type is a very long lived one. It spans at least celtic and roman period and continues all through the viking period.
(It is important to note that those few survivng viking sword grips show us quite a bit of variation in shape and dimension, although many are quite thin or narrow. Not all are simple straight affaris. You also see varying outlines including what Oakeshott describes as "hockbottle shaped")
The waisted grip of the "Berserker" is a type of grip you could reasonable find on several types of viking swords. I cannot say how common it was or if some types of hilts would never have that type of grip. Surviving material is too limited to be certain.
That grips of that shape was indeed used through out the viking period is shown by the Sountaka sword, among other. (The Sountaka sword is the inspiration for the "Valkyrja" in the NG line: a sword I am still working on, hoping to have completed by august).
Perhaps "waisted" is a misleading word for these grips. It might be better to call them hour glass shaped.
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C.L. Miller
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| Posted: Sat 25 Jun, 2005 3:12 am Post subject: |
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Thank you both for the excellent information! That was exactly what I was looking for. I agree, Peter, that "waisted" is most likely not the best term for this grip, and one that could easily lead to confusion. I'll try and use "hourglass" or "center-tapering" from here on out.
Thanks again!
-Christopher Liebtag Miller
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Kirk Lee Spencer
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| Posted: Sat 25 Jun, 2005 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| C.L. Miller wrote: | I'd still be very interested if anyone has any photos/illustrations of historical examples handy.
Thanks!
-Christopher Liebtag Miller |
Hi Christopher... Welcome to the forum!
Not too many Viking swords with grips remaining. However of the grips remaining quite a few have an hour glass like shape. They are not as symmetrical as those of the Migration Era... The Viking grips have a slight waist in the middle but the upper part of the grip is usually smaller than the lower part. In this sense they are almost transitional between the hour-glass hilts of Behmer's Type 3 and the later Knightly sword grips.
Here are a few pictures of what I have.
ks
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Suontaka pic from Vikings: North Atlantic Saga. River Scheldt sword from Oakeshott's "Archeology of Weapons" [ Download ]
Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
Industry Professional
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Brian M
Location: Austin, TX Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 500
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| Posted: Sat 16 Jul, 2005 9:55 am Post subject: |
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That one looks like it has a design carved into the bone (wood?) grip.
Brian M
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Mats Norlund
Location: Sweden Joined: 07 Dec 2003
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Sun 17 Jul, 2005 3:15 am Post subject: |
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Yes, that's right and it's likely from moose.
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