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Anton de Vries
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 Posted: Wed 11 May, 2005 3:47 pm Post subject: Albion NG Mercenary vs SL Bastard aka "The Twins" |
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As promised, some side-by-side pictures of the Merc and the Bastard, (hopefully) showing both the similarities and the differences. And some thoughts.
The swords: http://www.ptah.demon.nl/Swords/1.jpg
Tips: http://www.ptah.demon.nl/Swords/2.jpg
Edges: http://www.ptah.demon.nl/Swords/3.jpg
Pommels: http://www.ptah.demon.nl/Swords/4.jpg
Grips: http://www.ptah.demon.nl/Swords/5.jpg
Guards: http://www.ptah.demon.nl/Swords/6.jpg
When I took the Bastard out of the Big White Box the first thing that struck me was that it doesn't have the Mercenary's magic. This is hardly a sword and definitely not a deadly weapon. This is a training tool to me. I suppose that sharpening could fix that....
Finish is almost the same except for the grips. Very Albion. Only close inspection reveals that the Bastard's blade is slightly less shiny.
Bastard weighs 1365 grams
Mercenary weighs 1333 grams
Bastard is 1055 mm long
Mercenary is 1085mm long
The absence of cord in the Bastard's grip forces me to wear gloves when using it. I really miss those cords, especially the big one in the middle of the Merc's grip.
I was very surprised to find that the Bastard is heavier (and the CoG is also a bit farther out), as it feels lighter to me. It also handles a little easier and behaves very much like a single hander, even more than the Merc.
Looks like the differences in handling are caused by the Merc's longer blade and shorter (10 mm) grip.
Mike told me that small differences, like in this case the grip lenghts, are normal.
Personally I prefer the Merc's seemingly heavier but equally fast blade.
Keep in mind that these are whiner observations/opinions and that the handling is actually very very similar.
The Bastard's tip is much safer than I thought it would be, but the edges are NOT. I feel that using this sword for no-holds-barred sparring is unacceptably dangerous unless you're VERY well protected. The +/- 1mm thick flat edge will definitely CUT instead of bruise when it hits flesh. This is not a real 'blunt' but an unsharpened sword. The Big White Box (recently deceased) learned that the hard way.
However, I believe it's okay to use the Bastard for practice, when handled carefully.
Final comment: I am extremely happy with "the twins", as Aaron calls them, and would gladly have paid a lot more for them.
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G. Scott H.
Location: Arizona, USA Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 410
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| Posted: Wed 11 May, 2005 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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Wow!  I had no idea that the tip on the Squire would be that blunt. I wonder how they handle that when you request one of these sharpened? It looks like it would take a lot of work to reshape that to a sharp point. Unless the Squires, like their other swords, are also made one at a time to order, in which case, they could just not blunt it down after initial shaping (perphaps someone at Albion can answer this). As far as not being a deadly weapon, I assure you you could easily kill somebody with it, sharpened or not! I don't mean to be nitpicky, I just believe in giving all weapons the respect they deserve. Anyhow, the "twins" are beautiful. 
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Mark Mattimore
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| Posted: Wed 11 May, 2005 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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Anton
Thanks for the side-by-side comparisons. I was originally going to buy the Bastard until I took the plunge with the Mercenary instead. After seeing the Squire Line 13th century great sword at a recent roundtable I had to wonder if the extra $200 would be worth it. The finish on that sword was surprisingly good. Now that I see the twins together it confirms where the extra money went. Much cleaner finish on the Merc. I would have paid extra for the Mercenary's more well-defined tip alone (still scares me though! ). Thanks for the photos and handling notes.
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Wed 11 May, 2005 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks tons, Anton!
I want both for the same reason you have both - one for actual training without seriously hurting someone (including me!) and the other for my well-loved collection. Because of this, I feel I will be ok with the Bastard when it comes. It's definitely not that I don't believe it to be a high-quality piece, but it isn't a next gen. I've become quite happily spoiled, but very picky by the next gens.
I suppose there is a pair of questions that need to be answered when making the decision between the Squire Line and Next Gen pieces. First, what's the budget? Next Gens are significantly more costly - in this case, only $200. The Knight is a bit more than double the cost. The second question is purpose. Which would fit better into the collection or niche?
Given my choice between the two, I'll take the Merc. Why? Because it does fit both in my budget (with some planning) and my collection, which consists of both Next Gens and some sparring pieces. The Next Gens stay out on display, and the other ones get displaced to another part of the house - mostly the closet.
I'm still going to let the order for the Bastard sit - but only because I will be getting the Merc soon.
-Aaron Schnatterly
_______________
Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Steve Grisetti
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| Posted: Fri 13 May, 2005 7:42 pm Post subject: Re: Albion NG Mercenary vs SL Bastard aka "The Twins&qu |
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Let me echo the thanks to Anton for this very informative comparison! This is great!
| Anton de Vries wrote: | | ...The absence of cord in the Bastard's grip forces me to wear gloves when using it. I really miss those cords, especially the big one in the middle of the Merc's grip. |
I always felt that this difference in grip is what would bother me the most in the Bastard, and you confirmed that feeling. I wonder if Albion would be willing to dress up the Bastard's grip a bit for a reasonable fee? Of course, the Merc is 'only' $200 more.
| Anton de Vries wrote: | | ...The Bastard's tip is much safer than I thought it would be.... |
The tip looks AWFULLY blunt. Of course, maybe that is due to the closeup. I wonder if Albion would let this come to a more acute tip on request?
Of course, the more you try to customize the "cheap" blunt, if Albion would even do it, the closer you would get to the price of the "real sword".
Now, if we can just get someone to do similarly helpful comparisons between the other Squire lines and their "big brothers".
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Anton de Vries
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| Posted: Sat 14 May, 2005 5:02 am Post subject: Re: Albion NG Mercenary vs SL Bastard aka "The Twins&am |
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| Steve Grisetti wrote: |
I always felt that this difference in grip is what would bother me the most in the Bastard, and you confirmed that feeling. I wonder if Albion would be willing to dress up the Bastard's grip a bit for a reasonable fee? Of course, the Merc is 'only' $200 more. |
I got fed up with the (in my sweaty hands) slippery grip and gave it the sandpaper treatment. It does make quite a difference and I don't mind the 'worn' look. The Merc grip is still a lot better though, and perhaps I'll try to redo the Bastard's grip myself.
As you imply, Albion would probably be willing to fix the Bastards' 'shortcomings' but you'd end up with an unsharpened ($550) Mercenary.
| Steve Grisetti wrote: |
The tip looks AWFULLY blunt. Of course, maybe that is due to the closeup. |
It really IS that blunt, which is exactly the way I want it.
I can and do use the Merc (I really enjoy working with sharp swords) for solo drilling during the weekly closed WMA training, but I don't feel comfortable taking it to the open training, or the dojo I use for my daily workouts.
The Bastard is a perfect solution to that problem as I dislike wooden wasters.
| Steve Grisetti wrote: | | Now, if we can just get someone to do similarly helpful comparisons between the other Squire lines and their "big brothers". |
A lot can be learned by comparing the excellent SL (sharpened)Greatsword and NG Baron reviews. Reviews of the other SL's would be very nice though.
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Anton de Vries
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| Posted: Wed 25 May, 2005 8:12 am Post subject: |
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Minor update:
Yesterday I did a *very* short full speed/full power bout using the SL Bastard.
This chews up the blade quickly.
Some of the damage, after a filing session, can be seen here: http://www.ptah.demon.nl/Swords/damage.jpg
As mentioned in the "1st Albion bad review" thread, swords do have a finite life span, and that span is very short indeed on the battlefield.
This sword may last a full day in battle (which it definitely wasn't designed for IMO), if that, but certainly not much more.
No surprises here.
My opponent used a true (reenactment?) blunt, similar in size and weight to a war sword, and judging from the superficial damage it took I'd say that swords like that last MUCH longer in battle.
The Bastard's blade is relatively stiff, but still bends quite far when blocking a heavy blade, something that should not be forgotten unless you feel that platinum skull caps look good on you.
Now for the good stuff: Control is very precise and easy, the speed is great.
In spite of my very limited experience I found it extremely easy to fend off attacks.
After parrying I could whip out my Pocket PC, read my mail, then block the next attack. Or at least it felt that way.
It makes me feel very confident.
In spite of the damage to the sword I really enjoyed it, and will use the Bastard in this manner until it accumulates too much 'character'.
Then it will go to it's well deserved permanent place on my wall.
I am a very sensitive person (some might say 'whiner') and I love the feel of real swords, as opposed to the dead slab-of-steel feeling of blunts.
Well worth the extra (ouch) money.
Now if I could only convince the others to use lighter blunts... or wasters... hmm... perhaps shinais... shinais sound good...
For good measure I'd like to mention once more that SL swords are 'real' swords and should be treated with respect. They are more dangerous than blunts. Do not forget that.
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Pamela Muir
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| Posted: Wed 25 May, 2005 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| Anton de Vries wrote: | Minor update:
My opponent used a true (reenactment?) blunt, similar in size and weight to a war sword, and judging from the superficial damage it took I'd say that swords like that last MUCH longer in battle.
The Bastard's blade is relatively stiff, but still bends quite far when blocking a heavy blade, something that should not be forgotten unless you feel that platinum skull caps look good on you.
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Hi Anton,
Just curious, but I have to ask, what sword was your opponent using, i.e. make and model?
Thanks.
Pamela Muir
Founder/Lead Instructor
Academy of Chivalric Martial Arts
"I need a hero. I'm holding out for a hero 'til the end of the night. He's gotta be strong, And he's gotta be fast, And he's gotta be fresh from the fight." ~Steinman/Pitchford
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Roger Hooper
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| Posted: Wed 25 May, 2005 8:38 am Post subject: |
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Perhaps the swords of the upcoming Maestro line will fare better in a full speed/full power bout, especially against heavy reenactment bruisers
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Wed 25 May, 2005 8:38 am Post subject: |
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Nice update, Anton!
From a long look at the "battle damage assessment" photos, it looks as though it fared very well.
IF I ever had to entrust my life to using one of my Albions, I know it would serve me quite well. It may take a few licks, but the job would be done.
-Aaron Schnatterly
_______________
Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Wed 25 May, 2005 8:46 am Post subject: |
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| Roger Hooper wrote: | | Perhaps the swords of the upcoming Maestro line will fare better in a full speed/full power bout, especially against heavy reenactment bruisers |
I'd bet that will be the case. I'm actually a tiny bit surprised this held up that well. Of course, we don't see "the other guy" after Anton's bout.  Bet it took a couple of licks, too.
-Aaron Schnatterly
_______________
Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Anton de Vries
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| Posted: Wed 25 May, 2005 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| Pamela Muir wrote: |
Hi Anton,
Just curious, but I have to ask, what sword was your opponent using, i.e. make and model?
Thanks. |
He was using what Roger Hooper so aptly called a "heavy reenactment bruiser", probably of Czech manufacture. I'll try to make a pic next training.
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Pamela Muir
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| Posted: Wed 25 May, 2005 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| Anton de Vries wrote: |
He was using what Roger Hooper so aptly called a "heavy reenactment bruiser", probably of Czech manufacture. I'll try to make a pic next training. |
Thank you for the update.
Pamela Muir
Founder/Lead Instructor
Academy of Chivalric Martial Arts
"I need a hero. I'm holding out for a hero 'til the end of the night. He's gotta be strong, And he's gotta be fast, And he's gotta be fresh from the fight." ~Steinman/Pitchford
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Anton de Vries
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| Posted: Wed 25 May, 2005 9:27 am Post subject: |
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| Aaron Schnatterly wrote: | Nice update, Anton!
From a long look at the "battle damage assessment" photos, it looks as though it fared very well.
IF I ever had to entrust my life to using one of my Albions, I know it would serve me quite well. It may take a few licks, but the job would be done. |
Thanks. I wasn't in the least disappointed. I feel very confident and safe using it, and I believe I would feel the same in a real fight (I hope this is the closest I will ever get to a real swordfight though).
The photo shows only part of the damage, it has several nicks in the edge and many scratches and dings on the blade, especially on the midrib. Some on the guard too. Nothing really serious.
I'm no expert but I'd estimate it gained about $72 worth of character in 5 minutes.
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Anton de Vries
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| Posted: Wed 25 May, 2005 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| Aaron Schnatterly wrote: | | I'm actually a tiny bit surprised this held up that well. Of course, we don't see "the other guy" after Anton's bout. Bet it took a couple of licks, too. |
It wasn't a 'real' fight, as I still hesitate to use it that way, especially with the type of 'armor' we were wearing ( T-shirts). Actually I was a bit surprised too, as I felt it took some real heavy punishment from that bruiser.
I would very much like to try a Maestro. Those will no doubt have a much higher impact resistance. I really enjoy using a real sword, but a practice sword will definitely prove to be a lot cheaper, and what's more important, safer.
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Anton de Vries
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| Posted: Wed 25 May, 2005 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| Pamela Muir wrote: |
Thank you for the update. |
Another factor is that I'm 6'2" and 190 lbs. My opponent is about 6'3" and 200+ lbs. I like to believe I'm strong and fast, my opponent actually IS strong and fast.
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Wed 25 May, 2005 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| Anton de Vries wrote: | | Aaron Schnatterly wrote: | | We don't see "the other guy" after Anton's bout. Bet it took a couple of licks, too. |
It wasn't a 'real' fight, as I still hesitate to use it that way, especially with the type of 'armor' we were wearing ( T-shirts). Actually I was a bit surprised too, as I felt it took some real heavy punishment from that bruiser. |
Yeah, by "other guy" I meant the opponent's sword, in case anyone missed that. It's been my experience that the weapon with the lesser temper/hardness takes a proportionately larger punishment. If they are pretty close, though, they tend to suffer equally.
Like you, though, I hope this is as close to real as it ever comes. Even given years of practice with the same partner, I still took a good lick or two that drew blood - in strings of choreographed sequences we strung together with signals to bring some liveliness to public displays. Free sparring, I've taken a few more, and never do so without all of the proper armour (either period or modern). Little bouts at half-speed to illustrate form or technique requires less, of course...
-Aaron Schnatterly
_______________
Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Anton de Vries
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| Posted: Wed 25 May, 2005 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Aaron Schnatterly wrote: | | It's been my experience that the weapon with the lesser temper/hardness takes a proportionately larger punishment. |
That's true, but my opponent's blunt is much heavier and has no edge at all. What damage I did was invisible because of the zillion small nicks it already had.
It will probably take a Baron or similar cleaver to really do damage to it.
Which is not a good reason to get a Baron. Or is it? 
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Wed 25 May, 2005 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Anton de Vries wrote: | That's true, but my opponent's blunt is much heavier and has no edge at all. What damage I did was invisible because of the zillion small nicks it already had.
It will probably take a Baron or similar cleaver to really do damage to it.
Which is not a good reason to get a Baron. Or is it? |
Gotcha. It's really pretty much irrelevant - had yours been that much tougher than his, his would have been severely beaten. I've seen "swords" turned into serrated steak knives pretty quickly by a much stiffer one.
Oh, and an excuse to snag a Baron? Yeah, like I actually need to make up an excuse. I just need the available funds!  Soon, brother, soon...
-Aaron Schnatterly
_______________
Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Mon 20 Jun, 2005 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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Anton,
What grip color is that on your Mercenary? Red or Magenta?
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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