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Manouchehr M.





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PostPosted: Sun 24 Aug, 2003 1:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Look at the wootz pattern

By courtesy of Oriental Arms



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Manouchehr M.





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PostPosted: Sun 24 Aug, 2003 1:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Another Persian shamshir. Please note that the scabbard is newly made.

By courtesy of Oriental Arms

"A Shamshir, the Eastern saber that for centuries enchanted the world and was copied in practically all armies of the western world. A heavy deeply curved, wedge shape blade of minimal and simple design and yet a lethal slashing weapon in the experienced hand. Here we offer for sale a classical example. A 31 inches blade forged from fantastic watered steel (Wootz, Damascus), steel cross guard chiseled with Arabic inscription, Walrus ivory grips bound with twisted silver wire and steel pommel. Total length 37 inches. Very good condition. Minor blackened spots on the blade. An old crack on the right side grip but hold solid. The pommel cap is a later addition. Newly made scabbard"



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Manouchehr M.





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PostPosted: Sun 24 Aug, 2003 1:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Look at the beautiful chiselling on the cross guard.

By courtesy of Oriental Arms



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Manouchehr M.





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PostPosted: Sun 24 Aug, 2003 1:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And now the marvellous wootz pattern.

By courtesy of Oriental Arms



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Manouchehr M.





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PostPosted: Sun 24 Aug, 2003 1:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Contrary to the Ottoman smiths, Persian smiths never used mechanical damascus for their sabers (they used it for the middle of straight qammas which I will discuss later). They used also plain steel like the shamshir below,.


By courtesy of Oriental Arms

"According to the tradition of the Islam, the prophet Muhammad had two swords. The first was a straight blade sword, common to the period, which is now on display in the Topkapi Palace Museum, Istanbul.
The second sword is believed to have a split blade. It was given to Ali, the prophet son in low, who fought with it many great battles and seen great victories. The sword was nicknamed Zulfikar (Lord of cleaving). . This sword is lost, and no one really knows what was its shape. Many attempts to describe the Zulfikar have been made during the development of Islamic swords. One possibility is the sword offered here or sale: A Persian shamshir based sword, from the Qajar period, early to mid 19 C., with a curved 29 inches serrated blade and a bifurcated swolen tip. The blade is chiseled and engraved on its entire length with floral design. The hilt is a classical shamshir hilt, with steel cross guard and pommel and ivory grips. A very similar sword is shown in W. Egerton, Handbook of Indian Arms… Plate XV, item 658. Good condition. The hilt is restored and the pommel cap is a recent addition."



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Manouchehr M.





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PostPosted: Sun 24 Aug, 2003 1:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Look at the grip


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Manouchehr M.





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PostPosted: Sun 24 Aug, 2003 1:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ladies and gentlemen

Let me introduce the absolute quality in wootz,

Persian crucible steel from Safavid period taken from the blade surface of a marvellous shamshir



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Manouchehr M.





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PostPosted: Sun 24 Aug, 2003 1:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kilic

Late type from 1850 onwards. Sorry to jump but I might ask Nathan later to classify all these for us.

By courtesy of Hermann
Historica

- Strong yelman
- wide blade
- T-spine
- around 1800
- wootz damascus blade (yes some of the later types do come in wootz variations!)
- two gold inlay cartouches
- rhino horn grip
- wooden scabbard covered with leather
- 92 cms

By courtesy of Hermann Historica



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Manouchehr M.





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PostPosted: Sun 24 Aug, 2003 1:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is the famous battle between Safavid Persian and Ottoman Turks the so-called Chaldaran battle. This is a huge miniature paiting inside the palace of Chel Sutun in Isfahan, Iran. A breath taking experience when you look at tthis.

Note that the Iranian King "Shah Islmail" fought in the first rank, whereas the Ottoman Sultan Salim never did that, since he was fat and out of shape and more interested in wining and dining! But Salim was a fierce and excellent strategist.

Note that the Persian king Shah Ismail is using a shamshir and slashes the Turkish champion "Ghulcheran". Note that the Turkish champis wielding a wide bladed Kilic! This incident is based on historical annals and can be read and followed so no legend!

Copyright Manoucher M.



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Manouchehr M.





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PostPosted: Sun 24 Aug, 2003 1:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Before introducing the Ottoman Kilic with slender Shamshir blades, the Ottomans actually had another form of Kilic. This has a slight yelman (thanks Adam for remidning me of this).

The development

1) early kilic with slight yelman and different grip
2) Kilic with shasmhir blade
3) Wide bladed Kilic and a pronounced yelman

Now this is the earliest form of Ottoman Kilic

Kilic of Suleyman the Magnificent 1



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Manouchehr M.





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PostPosted: Sun 24 Aug, 2003 1:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is a late Kilic blade mounted in Indian Tulwar grip. Look at the beautiful blade.

By courtesy of Hermann Historica



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Manouchehr M.





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PostPosted: Sun 24 Aug, 2003 1:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Let'smove back to the wonderful world of Persian shamshirs. These are really magnificent.

By courtesy of Hermann Historica



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Manouchehr M.





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PostPosted: Sun 24 Aug, 2003 1:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Another Persian shamshir

By courtesy of Hermann Historica



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Antonio Cejunior




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PostPosted: Sun 24 Aug, 2003 5:42 pm    Post subject: Kilik and Shamshir         Reply with quote

Manoucher M. wrote:
Before introducing the Ottoman Kilic with slender Shamshir blades, the Ottomans actually had another form of Kilic. This has a slight yelman (thanks Adam for remidning me of this).

The development

1) early kilic with slight yelman and different grip
2) Kilic with shasmhir blade
3) Wide bladed Kilic and a pronounced yelman

Now this is the earliest form of Ottoman Kilic

Kilic of Suleyman the Magnificent 1


Greetings Manoucher,

Thank you for the explanation and display of beautil work.
If I may, I would like to ask why would all arab world carried a curved blade, even after the Cruzades?
Does the Turkish crescent shape has anything to do with it? I doubt, but no blame asking Happy
Allow me to explain the question better.
During my visit to Prof. Rainer Daenhardt back in 2001,he showed me some samples of all the weapons that the Portuguese encountered through their voyages and establishment in India, and apart from the Indian patha that appears to be a hybridation coming from the encounter with the first Europeans, the reach of the Tulwar and other similar shaped blades was far less than the cup-hilt or later the rapier.
My question is: is there an explanation on why would the shape stay unchanged, not being a cavalry sword?
Thank you, I would appreciate your invaluable insight.

Antonio
BLADESIGN

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and one race: the human race.
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Manouchehr M.





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PostPosted: Sun 24 Aug, 2003 10:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Antonio

Good questions. Please let me start by saying that the term of Arab world is very limited. Arab world only encompasses countries which speak Arabic like all small Gulf States, Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Yemen, Algeria, Marroco, Egypt, Libya, etc. These countries speak Arabic which is a semitic language.
There are other countries such as Iran, Tajikistan, North of Afghanistan where Farsi / Persian is spoken an Indo European language. The difference between the two is like Spanish and German, although there are many words borrowed from each other, sich as the case of Latin in European langauges, but a communication between the two is impossible.
No need to say that Turkish is another langauge.

Please note that early Islamic swords were all straight. During the crusades, Muslim forces had the same swords as their Christian foes. For seeing some wonderful examples, please check "Islamic Swords and Swordsmiths" by Dr. Ünsal. There you can also see the holy swords of Islam.

Please note that with the conquest of the Middle Eastern countries by Golden Horde (Mongol forces), the Middle East came for the first time in contact with curved sabers. Mongols themselves adopted this from Turkish tribes from Asia Minor who fought against and then for them!

There were still straight swords in the so-called Islamic world even after the Mongol conquest. On the horseback nothing beats a curved saber, you are agile and fast. Plus it allows for draw-cuts, a middle eastern specialty.

This form as you know enchanted European military forces and the French were fasinated by them and many European armies started to introduce this form. But as you see not a Middle eastern invention, per se.

Regards

Manoucher
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Antonio Cejunior




Location: Macau
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PostPosted: Sun 24 Aug, 2003 10:47 pm    Post subject: Stand corrected         Reply with quote

Manoucher M. wrote:
Hi Antonio

Good questions. Please let me start by saying that the term of Arab world is very limited. Arab world only encompasses countries which speak Arabic like all small Gulf States, Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Yemen, Algeria, Marroco, Egypt, Libya, etc. These countries speak Arabic which is a semitic language.
There are other countries such as Iran, Tajikistan, North of Afghanistan where Farsi / Persian is spoken an Indo European language. The difference between the two is like Spanish and German, although there are many words borrowed from each other, sich as the case of Latin in European langauges, but a communication between the two is impossible.
No need to say that Turkish is another langauge.

Please note that early Islamic swords were all straight. During the crusades, Muslim forces had the same swords as their Christian foes. For seeing some wonderful examples, please check "Islamic Swords and Swordsmiths" by Dr. Ünsal. There you can also see the holy swords of Islam.

Please note that with the conquest of the Middle Eastern countries by Golden Horde (Mongol forces), the Middle East came for the first time in contact with curved sabers. Mongols themselves adopted this from Turkish tribes from Asia Minor who fought against and then for them!

There were still straight swords in the so-called Islamic world even after the Mongol conquest. On the horseback nothing beats a curved saber, you are agile and fast. Plus it allows for draw-cuts, a middle eastern specialty.

This form as you know enchanted European military forces and the French were fasinated by them and many European armies started to introduce this form. But as you see not a Middle eastern invention, per se.

Regards

Manoucher


Hi Manoucher,

My computer had another glitch. I hope I can post.
Thank you for your full information on the contacts with the Mongol. Obviously my mentioning of the arab world was over generalized. Pardon me for it.
Indeed I overlooked the Mongol Hordes. But what a strategy they had on the basis of five poneys one man. I was more aware of their bows than the swords.
Indeed the Islamic swords are beautiful.
I have read Amin Maalouf's Smarkand and The Crusades viewed by the Arabs and very much enjoyed it.
I have now to update more on the differences.
BTW, Farsi stands for Persian, but in India there are the Parsee, which I believe are direct descendants of the Persian conquerors.
Thank you Happy

Antonio
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and one race: the human race.
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Manouchehr M.





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PostPosted: Sun 24 Aug, 2003 11:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Antonio

As far as I know there was no smithing technology among the Mongols. You are absolutly correct in saying that the Mongols relied on their bows, only after the enemy was worn and injured they attacked with lances and sabers. Lately I read that they also had heavy cavalry! (another topic I will open on the Mongols soon).

They borrowed or stole this sabers and adopted them from the Turkish tribes from Asia Minor. The Parsis are the followers of the Zoroastra the Persian prophet. There are 120,000 followers of this religion in today Iran as well. The Parsis escaped to Indian and fought the Muslim forces together with Indians there.

Middle Eastern swords are really marvellous. I will continue with this thread and will later introduce the straight swords from this region. They are pieces of art. All of them.

Regards

Manoucher
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Antonio Cejunior




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PostPosted: Sun 24 Aug, 2003 11:32 pm    Post subject: Nomads and Parsis         Reply with quote

Manoucher M. wrote:
Hi Antonio

As far as I know there was no smithing technology among the Mongols. You are absolutly correct in saying that the Mongols relied on their bows, only after the enemy was worn and injured they attacked with lances and sabers. Lately I read that they also had heavy cavalry! (another topic I will open on the Mongols soon).

They borrowed or stole this sabers and adopted them from the Turkish tribes from Asia Minor. The Parsis are the followers of the Zoroastra the Persian prophet. There are 120,000 followers of this religion in today Iran as well. The Parsis escaped to Indian and fought the Muslim forces together with Indians there.

Middle Eastern swords are really marvellous. I will continue with this thread and will later introduce the straight swords from this region. They are pieces of art. All of them.

Regards

Manoucher


Hi Manoucher,

Right, being nomads large scale smithing would not make much sense. Actually looking at the paraphernalia of a Chinese panoplia of halberds we can see the fleur-de-lis, the crescent, the kris and I suppose that two main periods contributed to this. The Mongols (Yuan dinasty) and Admiral Zheng He, (Ming Dinasty).
I thank you for confirming the Parsis as being Zoroastrians. They bear features very distinct from the Indians.
Then we still have the Brahmans apart from the Bhuddists, the Hindus, the Sikhs and the Jinas and Tirthankars.

I look forward for more of your information and pictures.
Lunch time's up Sad
Regards,

Antonio
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PostPosted: Sun 24 Aug, 2003 11:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Nomads and Parsis         Reply with quote

Antonio Cejunior wrote:
I look forward for more of your information and pictures.

I do, too. Please keep this up. I'm learning a lot.

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Jamie Fellrath




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PostPosted: Mon 25 Aug, 2003 7:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Manoucher M. wrote:

Please note that early Islamic swords were all straight. During the crusades, Muslim forces had the same swords as their Christian foes. For seeing some wonderful examples, please check "Islamic Swords and Swordsmiths" by Dr. Ünsal. There you can also see the holy swords of Islam.

Please note that with the conquest of the Middle Eastern countries by Golden Horde (Mongol forces), the Middle East came for the first time in contact with curved sabers. Mongols themselves adopted this from Turkish tribes from Asia Minor who fought against and then for them!

There were still straight swords in the so-called Islamic world even after the Mongol conquest. On the horseback nothing beats a curved saber, you are agile and fast. Plus it allows for draw-cuts, a middle eastern specialty.


Do you have any information on and/or pictures of these early swords, the straight ones? How were they similar to and how did they differ from European Swords of the time?

Jamie Fellrath
ARMA - Columbus
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