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Fromhold K.
Location: Estonia Joined: 12 May 2005
Posts: 5
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 Posted: Thu 19 May, 2005 2:14 am Post subject: Sword inscriptions; translation |
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Hello,
I write my bachelor's project on topic "The Meaning and Symbolism of the Sword in Medieval Society" and I would appreciate some help from you. I've had some trouble with translating few sword inscription, I hope you can help me out. Here they are:
1. O MARIA BIT WIR UNS
2. GLADIVS, CVM QVO DECOLLATI FVERVNT NOSTRI PATRONI
3. BENEDICTVS DOS DES MEVS QVI DOCET MANVS
4. SOUEREYNE SOUEREYNE (sovereign?)
5. VIM VI PEPELLEPE LICET
6. AVE MARIA GARCIA PLENA DOMINI
7. AUTEM TRANSIENS PER MEDIUM ILLUM
8.BENEDICATNTIUS ET MAT
Probably some of them are not whole words...
And if anybody knows some other writings from sword (or where I could find some), please let me know. And if possible, with references, the period of the sword, the type of the sword etc.
Thanks in advance.
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Chris Goerner
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| Posted: Thu 19 May, 2005 3:08 am Post subject: |
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Hmmm -- the first inscription is German. Have to admit my German isn't what it used to be -- gotten a bit rusty from lack of use. Even so, the wording seems odd to me.
O = Oh
Maria = the Virgin Mary
Bit = ask; in this context, "plead for" is probably a better rendering ("pray" is a closely related word -- "Beten")
Wir = we
Uns = us
Oh, Mary, plead we us?? I know old German script can be hard to make out. Any chance the word WIR could actually be FUR (with 2 dots above the U)? This would make the inscription "Oh, Mary, plead for us."
If not, perhaps someone more scholarly than me can provide a better translation.
--Chris
Sic Semper Tyranus
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Thu 19 May, 2005 3:39 am Post subject: Re: Sword inscriptions; translation |
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| Fromhold K. wrote: | | 6. AVE MARIA GARCIA PLENA DOMINI |
Latin to English
6. AVE MARIA GARCIA PLENA = Hail Mary, full of grace. DOMINI = The Lord
Ave María, grátia plena, Dóminus tecum. = Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee.
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
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Jean Le-Palud
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| Posted: Thu 19 May, 2005 4:34 am Post subject: |
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gladius, cum quo decollati fuerunt nostri patroni (u=v in latin)
(the) sword, with which our leaders were beheaded
I'm not sure that "patroni" means leader, because I have no latin dictionnary, it looks like the french "patron" meaning the boss or the leader.
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Jean Le-Palud
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| Posted: Thu 19 May, 2005 4:46 am Post subject: |
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AVE MARIA GRACIA PLENA DOMINI
I agree with Thomas for the beginning: Hail Mary, full of graces, but I think rather DOMINI is for DOMINI (MATER) which means mother of The Lord.
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Alberto Dainese
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| Posted: Thu 19 May, 2005 5:12 am Post subject: |
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Hi all,
Maybe..
5. VIM VI [R]EPELLE[R]E LICET = it is lawful to repel the force(violence) with the force(violence)
7. AUTEM TRANSIENS PER MEDIUM ILLUM = but Him passing between them (from Gospel Luke 4,30)
Ciao
Alberto...
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Jean Le-Palud
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| Posted: Thu 19 May, 2005 5:33 am Post subject: |
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Hi again,
Alberto's translations look very fine, and he is an Italian...
I found "Patronus" (plural=patroni) on a latin/english dictionary on-line, with the following meanings : a protector, defender, patron.
When the vikings became christians it seems that some of their blades beared the inscription IN NOMINE DOMINI (In the Name of the Lord). You can look at Swords of the Viking Age by Ian Peirce.
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William Goodwin
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| Posted: Thu 19 May, 2005 5:42 am Post subject: |
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The only one i could get figured out with some substance was
Gladivs cvm quo decollati fvervnt nostri patron
gladivs = sword
cvm = sing
quo = which/where
decollati = to behead
fverunt = ?
nostri = our
partoni = patron / protector
Wish my 14 yr son was here, he's a Latin wiz........
Bill
Roanoke Sword Guilde
roanokeswordguilde@live.com
"I was born for this" - Joan of Arc
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Alberto Dainese
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| Posted: Thu 19 May, 2005 6:04 am Post subject: |
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Hi all,
Maybe...
3. BENEDICTVS DO[MINU]S DE[U]S MEVS QVI DOCET MANVS [AD PROELIUM DIGITOS MEOS AD BELLUM] = Blessed be the Lord my God, who teacheth my hands to fight, and my fingers to war.
It's from Holy Bible, David vs Goliath, psalm 143 (144).
Thank Jean 
Ciao
Alberto...
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Thu 19 May, 2005 6:30 am Post subject: |
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"BENEDICTVS DOS DES MEVS QVI DOCET MANVS" appears on the lower edge of the pommel of the St. Maurice sword in Vienna. Unfortunately, my Latin is limited to medical terminology...
Benedict ..... ..... my which/what/that ..... hand
If Docet is actually Decet, that would be "proper, suitable"
If Des is Deus, that would be "God"
Hopefully that will give someone more to go on - of course, I'm FAR from an authority on Latin.
I was able to turn up this tidbit, though... appearing across the cross of the same sword is the following: "CHRISTUS VINCIT. CHRISTUS REINAT." on one side and "CHRISTUS INPERAT."
which, according to the webpage's author, translates to: "Christ Conquers. Christ Rules. Christ (is the) Emperor"
Source: http://swordforum.com/summer99/st-m.html
-Aaron Schnatterly
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Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Thu 19 May, 2005 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| Alberto Dainese wrote: | Hi all,
Maybe...
3. BENEDICTVS DO[MINU]S DE[U]S MEVS QVI DOCET MANVS [AD PROELIUM DIGITOS MEOS AD BELLUM] = Blessed be the Lord my God, who teacheth my hands to fight, and my fingers to war.
It's from Holy Bible, David vs Goliath, psalm 143 (144).
Thank Jean
Ciao
Alberto... |
You posted this while I was trying to figure it out.
Sweet! I knew it was vaguely familiar once I had some of it pulled together. Glad you actually knew, though... I was struggling badly. Glad I wasn't horribly off...
-Aaron Schnatterly
_______________
Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Fromhold K.
Location: Estonia Joined: 12 May 2005
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Fri 20 May, 2005 12:24 am Post subject: |
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Thanks!
Translations and especially these Bible references were really great and helpful!
My Latin is more than rusty and the translations I got were... well, funny at best .
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Alberto Dainese
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| Posted: Fri 20 May, 2005 5:14 am Post subject: |
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| Alberto Dainese wrote: |
5. VIM VI [R]EPELLE[R]E LICET = it is lawful to repel the force(violence) with the force(violence)
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Perhaps I should try some better words to translate LICET. The latin verb LICEO implies quite often a ethical judgement instead of a legal one.
Ciao
Alberto...
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Bruce Wilson
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| Posted: Fri 20 May, 2005 7:29 am Post subject: |
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Perhaps the most apprporiate (if not literal) translation might use "just" instead of "lawful"? - that would incorporate the moral dimension you're suggesting. Hence:
"It is just to meet force with force"
Not a bad motto to have engraved on a sword really.... 
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George Hill
Location: Atlanta Ga Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 614
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| Posted: Fri 20 May, 2005 10:45 am Post subject: |
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Hey, If you are doing a progect on swords and their inscriptions, Can you post ALL the transilations you have for those of us who are interisted?
Once you have them all transilated of course. A list of the originals and the translations would be very interisting to me.
To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Fromhold K.
Location: Estonia Joined: 12 May 2005
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Fri 20 May, 2005 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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Sure, but not before next week - I am currently away from my own computer with the list.
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Micha Hofmann
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| Posted: Fri 20 May, 2005 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Chris Goerner wrote: | Any chance the word WIR could actually be FUR (with 2 dots above the U)? This would make the inscription "Oh, Mary, plead for us."
If not, perhaps someone more scholarly than me can provide a better translation.
--Chris |
Hmmm....
The german language has changed quite a bit during the last 650 years ( The sword is dated 1450-80 by Oakeshott).
Based on my limited experience with old german ( and a healthy dose of speculation ) my first guess would be:
"O MARIA BIT WIR UNS" = "Oh Maria, bete / bitte für uns." = "Oh Mary, pray / plead for us"
When looking into old fencing manuals, the spelling of individual words differs a lot from contemporary german, so "wir = "für" = for might be possible. It would also make sense regarding grammar and context.
However, I've just word-searched my way through transcribtions of "Ringeck ( about 1440) and Von Danzig ( 1452 ), trying to finde evidence for use of the word "wir" in place of today's "für" ( for).
I did not find such a use of "wir" in any of those books.
On Ringecks page 17 I found the sentence
". Wer das wäre, dem wir geloben,
in kunsten gern zu lonen." , in which "wir" is used as "we" and not as "for".
In Von Danzig, the same sentence is written as
"wer dy were denn wir geloben / In kunsten gerne zů lon" . Doesn't sound a lot like "für" either...
The sentence on the sword could also mean something like "Oh Maria, wir bieten uns für dich dar" = "Oh Mary, we sacrifice ourselves for you" .
So, after a a lot of latenight thinking, i recommend asking somebody proficient in old german. I'm not sure. If you really need the exact translation, I could try asking somebody at the local university...
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This is a standard topic