[J. Padgett]

I didn't want to derail Joe Yurgil's thread about magical swords, but after reading a little about the St. Galgano story I had a couple of questions.

Are there any accounts of people trying to remove the sword? Bjorn's article mentioned briefly that according to one version of the legend attempting this would result in your arms being torn off, but human nature being what it is someone must have tried at least once.

These days I'm sure there are security measures in place to keep people from touching, or tampering with the sword. Has anyone been there to see it?

[Alex Oster]

I read the artical, but my question was, if they did a check for whats under it, why didn't they do a check to see if its a whole sword?

[Helen Miller]

Doesn't shed a whole lot of light on your questions BUT it's a start:

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20040301/sword.html

[Nathan Robinson]

Our article has references cited, too, with links to oher Web resources on the issue.

[J. Padgett]

Thanks Helen and Nathan. I still haven't found answers to my specific questions, but that may simply be because there are no recorded instances of people trying to remove the sword. I suppose if it was possible to easily remove the sword someone would have done it by now, and there wouldn't be such a mystery surrounding it.

The article Helen linked to was dated March 1st, 2004, but I'm guessing the Project Galgano people did not find a body, or else there would have been some kind of follow up story.

On another note does anyone else think it is a bit grisly that his head is preserved?

Edit: Found another website with pictures of the sword. Somehow I don't think the church wants it to be removed.

http://www.sangalgano.info/spada_en.html

[Steve Fabert]

The custom of preserving a deceased celebrity's head rather than preserving his entire body has been fairly common in Europe. I know of one example of it in the 20th Century, and I am reasonably sure it was common in earlier centuries to treat saint's relics in this fashion.

I wonder what a geologist would say about the 'stone'. It would not be difficult to place a sword in concrete. If a geologist can confirm what kind of object the 'stone' is, the most obvious potential non-miraculous explanation would be resolved.

[Helen Miller]

Sorry about the article J. Padgett. I was hoping to find some really exciting discovery. I could do some more research on it tomorrow to see if I find anything new interesting. I was hoping the same thing you were.

As far as preserving saint relics is concerned, it was fairly common to do so. I read somewhere that they would even preserve a saint's finger nail or stuff even worse AND people would go on pilgrimages just to see this! EWWWW!

[Mikko Kuusirati]

[Alina Boyden]

Medieval people didn't have concrete.

Here is where I say something uncharacteristically biased and un-academic: It's a miracle, just as the story claims.

[Alex Oster]

no concrete... I'm pretty sure thats not entirely true... maybe not concrete as we know it, but I do belive they had an equivalent...then again, I am bald... so maybe I don't know everything...

[Steve Grisetti]

[Alina Boyden]

The Romans had concrete but the art of making concrete was lost for centuries until much much later in the 19th century. There was no concrete in the middle ages. That's why medieval buildings are all made of stonework and not concrete. Just think how much easier a castle would be to make if you could pour out a concrete wall

Concrete is my #1 least favorite invention of all time. I can't stand the way it looks or the way it permeates all of society.

[Benjamin McCracken]

Actually... Here is a link to a page on the history of concrete. http://matse1.mse.uiuc.edu/~tw/concrete/hist.html It appears that both of you are right. The page says that in the middle ages (1200 - 1500) "[t]he quality of cementing materials deteriorated. The use of burning lime and pozzolan (admixture) was lost, but reintroduced in the 1300's."

Personally I like to believe in miracles.


Ben

[Jean Thibodeau]

Oh. yes concrete castles could have been much better at resisting canon fire I would guess and truly massive 30 foot thick walls. ( Might have changed history ? Made fortifications much harder to defeat and caused the making of truly "Monstrous bombard " . )

Designs would have maybe more organic shapes with complex deflecting surfaces.

Facings using real stone could still have been used for an outer shell for decorative reasons.

Designing imaginary fortifications was my primary way of mentally escaping dull classes at school and I still enjoy imagining complex gateways and fortifications that would put an attacker at maximum disadvantage. ( Very good in any situation where being bored is a hazzard, like doctor's waiting rooms or any other activity that involves long waits. )

Getting back to subject: At the time this sword ended up encased in stone "like" materials concrete was not used in Europe, but was it known anywhere else in the world ? Could some other type of artificial stone fool modern science into thinking that it is natural.

If one could make a sword shaped hole in real stone, could a blade be cast in place ? Or would a sword heated to forging heat be forced into the hole. ( The hole shaped with a narrowing in thickness that would hold the sword after it was pounded in and deformed enough to be unremovable ? Just trying to imagine how it might be done

[Alina Boyden]

[J. Padgett]

I have to agree with Alina that concrete is horribly monotonous as a building material. Also it isn't surprising to me that the Romans had it, but it was basically forgotten during the Middle Ages. That will happen when barbarians come in, and start kicking stuff around.

Helen, no need to be sorry about the article! Any additional information is good.

I knew that the remains of saints were often preserved, but I always thought it was mostly bones. Fingernails would be quite gross. Part of Saint Galgano's legend was that his head grew golden curls for several years after his death. That would be much more worthy of a pilgrimage I think. I've heard of saints' bodies not decomposing, and smelling like flowers after death too. I tried to find a picture of his preserved head, but no such luck.

You would think that since they discovered the opening beneath the rock believed to house the saint's body scientists could also detect the rest of the sword within the rock itself.

As to whether or not is is a genuine miracle... I have no idea. I'm not actually trying to debunk the legend, but rather learn as much as I can about it. What puzzles me is that if it is truly a miracle why would Galgano simply become a hermit? Abandoning his former worldly ways is good, but wouldn't it make more sense to become someone who preaches the word of God if he saw proof of the divine?

[Alina Boyden]

[J. Padgett]

Interesting. Thanks, Alina. I knew about poverty being important once the bourgeoisie began to rise, but never knew about the praying aspect of monastic life. Obviously I knew they prayed, but I didn't realize they were doing it as a service to others. I had always thought monastic life was simply an abandonment of the outside world to find personal salvation. Learn something new every day.

[Helen Miller]

I recently contacted Mr. Damiano Andreini manager of the TUSCANJOURNEY.ORG website and tourguide.
Here's what he had to say:

[Mikko Kuusirati]