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Joe Yurgil
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 Posted: Thu 21 Apr, 2005 7:33 pm Post subject: magic swords |
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Hey guys,
I'm wondering if anyone knows of any Migration or Viking sword about with there is any story atributing magical properties to it. I dont mean any legendary sword which supposedly exists but more the otherway around. I know that runes can be magical but im really looking for something more concrete. I know thats asking a lot, and im not really expecting much but any information you have would be helpful.
Thanks a bunch 
Joe
Sjá, þar sé ek föður minn.
Sjá, þar sé ek móður mina ok systur mina ok bróður minn.
Sjá, þar sé ek allan minn frændgarð.
Sjá, kalla þeim tíl min.
Biðja mér at taka minn stað hjá þeim í sölum Valhallar, þar drengiligr menn munu lifa allan aldr.
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Joe Yurgil
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| Posted: Fri 22 Apr, 2005 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, a hundred views and no reply. Well i guess that answers my question. I realize it was pretty specific and didn't expect much feedback (i had asked this on another forum and though there were many replies, there weren't many good ones). Thanks for looking anyway guys.
Sjá, þar sé ek föður minn.
Sjá, þar sé ek móður mina ok systur mina ok bróður minn.
Sjá, þar sé ek allan minn frændgarð.
Sjá, kalla þeim tíl min.
Biðja mér at taka minn stað hjá þeim í sölum Valhallar, þar drengiligr menn munu lifa allan aldr.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Fri 22 Apr, 2005 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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It might help to more clearly define your request.
Are you looking for instances of swords having "magical" stories associated with them, such as an Excalibur or Durendal?
Are you looking for stories of actual "magical" swords with otherworldy properties? (whatever that is)
If you're looking for the former we can probably help. If you're looking for the latter this website isn't the best place to search.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Fri 22 Apr, 2005 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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There are a few swords with purported histories but not from the Viking/Migration era as far as I know. There really isn't enough documentation from that era to prove anything. The best luck would be the swords of saints from the middle ages - St. Maurice (x2) St. Galgano, etc. The sword of El Cid is supposedly around too. Almost all of these are clearly not genuine except the sword of St. Galgano.
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Fri 22 Apr, 2005 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Joe
This is probably not what your after, but I figure it's a good read anyway !
The link below is page 1 of an article entitled "Serpent of Blood", by Ewart Oakeshott, which was in one of The Park Lane Arms Fair catalogues (copyright D.A. Oliver Ltd.)......
If it interests you I can send you the full article (just shoot me your e-mail address and I'll send it on)
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y59/mactom/Oakblood.jpg
Mac
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
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J. Padgett
Location: In a comfy chair Joined: 17 Nov 2003
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Fri 22 Apr, 2005 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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I'd love to be able to help, but if you're looking for actual swords with magical legendry in their history there is not much to go on. Perhaps some of the forumites who have been to numerous museums have seen something of this nature. There have to be some peices with legends attributed to them you would think. Something along the lines of the Hope Diamond maybe, but in sword form?
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Sun 24 Apr, 2005 8:07 am Post subject: |
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There were numerous swords attributed with magical properties. In fact, pretty much all swords and other weapons were considered inherently magical to at least some degree, though not necessarily in the sense of the word we'd be likely to think of - our particular brand of distinction between natural and supernatural is a fairly modern notion.
But I think the main problem here is that we have no surviving sword, AFAIK, that could be plausibly identified with one mentioned in Viking era sources.
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Sun 24 Apr, 2005 8:59 am Post subject: |
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Olav Trygvason reputedly owned a sword named "Kvernbit", which could cleave halfway through a millstone.
In St Olav's saga there are noumerous supernatural refferneces. For instance, one of the rebel cheiftains purchase several magical reindeer hide shirts from a Lappish shaman, which the saga states stopped sword blows as if they where maile.
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Daniel Parry
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| Posted: Sun 24 Apr, 2005 10:08 am Post subject: |
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Agree with the comments above and can't really help if you're looking for actual museum pieces with magical histories attached. The following books ' The English Warrior' by Stephen Pollington and 'The Sword in Anglo-Saxon England' by Hilda Ellis Davidson are good if you are interested in the literary associations between supernatural elements and swords. Stephen Pollington is particularly interesting on the difference between Thor inspired weapons and Odin inspired weapons, and the pagan idea that 'good' Thor weapons weren't suitable for killing bad creatures; you needed a 'bad' Odin weapon for this, like kills like perhaps (he cites Beowulf and Grendel's mother as an instance amongst others). Very different to Christian concepts. But actual pieces are a different matter. And as Mikko rightly says above you need to be careful of making the modern distinctions between supernatural and natural that may not fit with the Saxon/Viking mind.
I completely agree with what Alina says that there may be many more instances of such stories and associations in the later Christian culture of Europe, (and I don't think Alina gave any indication she believed them) . Given the propensity of medieval Europeans towards Holy Relics, all such stories should be taken with a very large pinch of salt. A BBC documentary a year or so ago calculated that if all the Holy bone relics were true, Christ would have had around 2,000 bones in his body ( A medieval historian also once told me that two medieval Italian city states had fought a minor war over who possessed the genuine original circumcised fore-skin of Christ). Same goes for sword stories. Unlikely in the extreme.
Good luck in your quest for actual pieces but I have a feeling it will be a long search
Daniel
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Sun 24 Apr, 2005 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| Daniel Parry wrote: | Agree with the comments above and can't really help if you're looking for actual museum pieces with magical histories attached. The following books ' The English Warrior' by Stephen Pollington and 'The Sword in Anglo-Saxon England' by Hilda Ellis Davidson are good if you are interested in the literary associations between supernatural elements and swords. Stephen Pollington is particularly interesting on the difference between Thor inspired weapons and Odin inspired weapons, and the pagan idea that 'good' Thor weapons weren't suitable for killing bad creatures; you needed a 'bad' Odin weapon for this, like kills like perhaps (he cites Beowulf and Grendel's mother as an instance amongst others). Very different to Christian concepts. But actual pieces are a different matter. And as Mikko rightly says above you need to be careful of making the modern distinctions between supernatural and natural that may not fit with the Saxon/Viking mind.
I completely agree with what Alina says that there may be many more instances of such stories and associations in the later Christian culture of Europe, (and I don't think Alina gave any indication she believed them) . Given the propensity of medieval Europeans towards Holy Relics, all such stories should be taken with a very large pinch of salt. A BBC documentary a year or so ago calculated that if all the Holy bone relics were true, Christ would have had around 2,000 bones in his body ( A medieval historian also once told me that two medieval Italian city states had fought a minor war over who possessed the genuine original circumcised fore-skin of Christ). Same goes for sword stories. Unlikely in the extreme.
Good luck in your quest for actual pieces but I have a feeling it will be a long search
Daniel |
Well, the official policy of the Church is not to confirm any relics as actual relics. Rather, they indicate that there is a high likelihood of them being genuine.
As far as swords - I'm pretty convinced by the Sword of St. Galgano.
Edit: The odin-thor weapons bit is my favorite part of that book. I have researched this a great deal and it holds up almost invariably. Interesting also is that the bad weapon is almost always a seax or langsax.
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Sun 24 Apr, 2005 10:44 am Post subject: |
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As long as we're talking about magic swords, let's not forget the dread Tirfing which would cut through steel as if through cloth, forced the wielder to kill someone every time it was unsheathed, and was handed down through a veritable parade of heroes and warriors before being lost to mortal men; or Skofnung, the famous ancient brand Cormac the Skald borrowed from old Skeggi for his unlucky duel. Or Gram... or, indeed, the "siblings" Cortana, Durandal, and Joyeuse (or Sauvagine, according to others).
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Joe Yurgil
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| Posted: Sun 24 Apr, 2005 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Daniel Parry wrote: | | Agree with the comments above and can't really help if you're looking for actual museum pieces with magical histories attached. |
Actually thats just what I am looking for. I know there are lots of myths about swords, ledgendary swords especially. The problem with ledgendary swords is just that. They are ledgends only for all intents and purposes. The thing which makes my search even more difficult is the dark ages back ground I'm looking for. Im not surprised that no one has come up with any real examples and said, "here is a sword which was called Erwin and it can.... i dunno.. make men dance like chickens with their favorite brand of cream pie in a woman's bathing suit for a partener.... or something."
Like I said, im not looking for a Gram or a Grasida or anything of that sort, but a real sword. It is also interesting to point out how these swords *dont* really exist. If they aren't in museums that means they need to be dug up and sure enough the person who burried it to begin with didnt leave instructions for the next owner (insert point A into wound X  ) Perhaps this is what lets people keep writing books about them that dont say anything to enlighten us, since there is no knowledge to be had, not with how things are now anyway. Perhaps some sword sitting in some museum *is* a ledgendary sword and enables the user to fly or something, we may never know.
edited for speling
Sjá, þar sé ek föður minn.
Sjá, þar sé ek móður mina ok systur mina ok bróður minn.
Sjá, þar sé ek allan minn frændgarð.
Sjá, kalla þeim tíl min.
Biðja mér at taka minn stað hjá þeim í sölum Valhallar, þar drengiligr menn munu lifa allan aldr.
Last edited by Joe Yurgil on Sun 24 Apr, 2005 1:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Steve Grisetti
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| Posted: Sun 24 Apr, 2005 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Alina Boyden wrote: | ...As far as swords - I'm pretty convinced by the Sword of St. Galgano....
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I am nowhere near as well-read as many of you, but from what I have read about the Sword of St. Galgano, I fall into Alina's camp - it seems pretty convincing. Though, I must admit that there are so many stories out there that we must take with a pinch of salt (or, in some cases, a boulder), that I would like to be able to believe a story like that of Galgano, where a piece of evidence is present and there is no obvious fakery.
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Sun 24 Apr, 2005 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Joe Yurgil wrote: | | Daniel Parry wrote: | | Agree with the comments above and can't really help if you're looking for actual museum pieces with magical histories attached. |
Actually thats just what I am looking for. I know there are lots of myths about swords, ledgendary swords especially. The problem with ledgendary swords is just that. They are ledgends only for all intents and purposes. The thing which makes my search even more difficult is the dark ages back ground I'm looking for. Im not surprised that no one has come up with any real examples and said, "here is a sword which was called Erwin and it can.... i dunno.. make men dance like chickens with their favorite brand of cream pie in a woman's bathing suit for a partener.... or something."
Like I said, im not looking for a Gram or a Grasida or anything of that sort, but a real sword. It is also interesting to point out how these swords *dont* really exist. If they aren't in museums that means they need to be dug up and sure enough the person who burried it to begin with didnt leave instructions for the next owner (insert point A into wound X ) Perhaps this is what lets people keep writing books about them that dont say anything to enlighten us, since there is no knowledge to be had, not with how things are not anyway. Perhaps some sword sitting in some museum *is* a ledgendary sword and enables the user to fly or something, we may never know. |
Part of the problem I'm seeing here is that you seem to be implying that magic exists.
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Joe Yurgil
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| Posted: Sun 24 Apr, 2005 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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No, not at all, but legends about magic certainly do exist. Maybe I should say "magic" swords, which "enable the user to fly" or whatever. Im not interested in the magic itself but only an example of a "magic" sword. The reason i ask is that finding a story about some supernatural sword that supposedly exised is easy. Finding a sword about which some supernatural story exists is next to impossible as we have been demonstrating. You may find this as an exercise in futility but i think that it is significant that we haven't seen any examples yet.
Sjá, þar sé ek föður minn.
Sjá, þar sé ek móður mina ok systur mina ok bróður minn.
Sjá, þar sé ek allan minn frændgarð.
Sjá, kalla þeim tíl min.
Biðja mér at taka minn stað hjá þeim í sölum Valhallar, þar drengiligr menn munu lifa allan aldr.
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Sun 24 Apr, 2005 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Joe Yurgil wrote: | | No, not at all, but legends about magic certainly do exist. Maybe I should say "magic" swords, which "enable the user to fly" or whatever. Im not interested in the magic itself but only an example of a "magic" sword. The reason i ask is that finding a story about some supernatural sword that supposedly exised is easy. Finding a sword about which some supernatural story exists is next to impossible as we have been demonstrating. You may find this as an exercise in futility but i think that it is significant that we haven't seen any examples yet. |
Well, I don't. If real magic doesn't exist then the sword won't exhibit any magical properties. Therefore, we have to find a sword about which there is extant documentation. This means that we have to put together the historical literary evidence and the archaeological evidence in one weapon. To do that, we'd have to be able to prove that a sword is exactly the same sword from the period sources. This is next to impossible even under the best of circumstances. Then, we have to factor in the rather terrible records keeping that went on during most of the early middle ages. In addition to that, we'd have to factor in that many of these sword finds are in bogs or rivers. So even if a document said that skofnung was thrown into the Thames in London, we still couldn't prove which viking style sword found in the Thames is skofnung. What you're looking for is something that is a near historical impossibility. The only reason we have examples of saintly swords is the Catholic culture of relics and propensity for hoarding religious items in monasteries. No such circumstances existed for pagan magical culture.
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Kenneth Enroth
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| Posted: Sun 24 Apr, 2005 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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It is impossible to know if a thousand year old sword had magical properties attributed to it by it's original owners. Some of them might well have been seen as magical or blessed in some way but there is no way for us to know.
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Daniel Parry
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| Posted: Sun 24 Apr, 2005 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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The Norse/Icelandic/Saxon sagas themselves are worth looking at on this point as there aren't that many references to magical powers of swords even in the Sagas. A lot of references to swords having never failed their owner, or being ancient or beautifully patterned, or valuable or very sharp but the actual references to other supernatural influences aren't as common as may be thought ( Weland smith, the millstone, cutting the string in the river, the snake-blade aside).
On Alina's point, yes the fact it is always a saex did strike me a lot when I first read it. How many were taken from burial mounds and how many by victory in combat ?The logical, simplistic solutions are of course that as Thor blades, swords were to be passed on in the family rather than buried otherwise you couldn't have the ' ancient' blades described in the Sagas; or a monetary reason that, with the exception of royal burials like Sutton Hoo, such swords were too valuable to bury. Therefore cheaper weapons were buried, and then available to those who would plunder the mound.But that doesn't quite fit with the value of the other grave goods found, which can rival the value of swords.. It may be as Pollington implies that the nature of the saex as an under-the-ribs sort of weapon gave it its less exalted, but very valued, practical status. I just found that idea a stong contention against the current concept that Beowulf etc are old testament and possibly new testament inspired poems. Very un-Christian ideas like that, plus the fact that you could practically insert the words Thor or Odin or Freia in place of 'our Lord' without interrupting the poem, and with much better contextual consistency makes me think it was a much earlier pagan poem. Don't know. But I liked his book.
I am lost on the St Galgano sword. No knowledge at all.
Went to the London Antique Arms & Armour Fair yesterday. Poor showing on rapiers and smallswords overall, which is my main interest, but surprisingly good on Islamic swords, helmets and armour, more than I've seen recently. It seems to be an up and coming area. At the top end of the fair, a very,very nice pair of Manton duelling pistols if you had US 35,000 in spare change just jingling in your pocket, or a rather nice presentation small-sword for auction later (reserve price US 75,000). Just a little outside my price bracket !! I nearly bought an Italian 17th century cup-hilt rapier but decided against as I want to find a really nice English steel hilt small-sword.
Daniel
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Mon 25 Apr, 2005 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| Daniel Parry wrote: | | Like I said, im not looking for a Gram or a Grasida or anything of that sort, but a real sword. |
Actually, there's a very good chance that Grasida was, in fact, a real sword. Skofnung, too (although it would actually be an older, Migration era type of sword, probably with a serpentine-patterned blade, and a "bloodstone" on it or its scabbard). It's just that even if they survived till modern day, we really cound't tell them apart from any other sword of the same approximate time. For all we know, Grasida might well lie unidentified in some museum somewhere, labeled as just another patternwelded Viking spearhead.
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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