[Greyson Brown]

Almost any work dealing with armour of the 14th century illustrates a hundskull bascinet, and most show a klapvisor as well. Unfortunately, the klapvisor is almost exclusively German and Italian, and the hundskull dates from about 1370 and later. According to John Miles Paddock, in Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight, early bascinets were fitted with globular visors, but the only example that I have been able to find is that on the brass of Sir Hugh Hastings (c. 1347). The visor of Sir Hugh is rather poorly depicted in my opinion, but some of the smaller figures along the edge have visors rather like a side pivoting version of an early klapvisor.

Does anyone know of other depictions of these apparently rare globular visors?

Also, I know that Valentine Armouries produces this replica, but it looks a bit more like a great bascinet visor to me. Does anyone know how accurate this particular visor is, and/or whether there are other manufacturers that produce early bascinet visors? Thanks.

-Grey

[Alexi Goranov]

Hi Jason,

from what I have read and seen, the earlier visors on the bascinets were characterized by being smaller and barely covering the face. They were also not projecting forward like the pig-faced visors (also called hundsgugel or houndskull) but were rather rounded off and somewhat globular.


this is a line drawing of one of the best examples of the kind. The original is in the Valeria museum in Sitten Switzerland. I agree that the Valentine armouries visor reminds me of the great beacinets more than the earlier kinds. That being said, the Sitten helmet is dated to 1370.

i am aware of at least one more bascinet with similar visor in the Deutcshes Hisorisches museum. It is also dated to 1370.
Both of them are suspended by the klappvisier method.

This is one of the better repros I have seen.

This is the website


Here is another one from BestArmour

I have also seen period illustrations of bascinets with a more expanded nose-cone, but I do not think that this is what you are referring to. Example bellow. It is dated to very late 14th, early 15th century.




I hope that helps

[Alexi Goranov]

This was kindly sent to me as a reply to this thread by Brian Rainey form the Armour Research Society

[Michael P Smith]

The sources Alexi mentions are the best for this. I have combed through the Romance of Alexander and have isolated some of the better images of these types of visors. Here they are:

[Søren Niedziella]

Here are some pictures of helmets from Musée de l'Armée, they are all (1-4) registered as been from the 14th century. I guess number 2 is what you are looking for?

[Alexi Goranov]

[Alexi Goranov]

Another informative post from Brian Rainey of the ARS

[Greyson Brown]

Thanks for all of the info, guys. Mr. Rainey's input in particular was very informative, and the Romance of Alexander does depict the type of visors I had expected to see based on the written description in Edge and Paddock's book.

Working on the belief that klapvisors are defined by method of attachment, rather than shape (after all, there are hundskull-shaped visors that use the exact same method of attachment), I traced (because I really can't draw) pictures of klapvisors (including the first two that Alexi posted, as they appear in Brian Price's Techniques of Medieval Armour Reproduction: The 14th Century). I then modified these pictures, so that the visor was attached via side pivots. The result was that I had basically drawn the visors that appear in the Romance of Alexander. Isn't vindication wonderful.

Now I just have to get the whole world behind me in undoing the misconception that the klapvisor is actually a type of visor; it is in fact a method of visor attachment. So what we really have are hundskull and globular (though I think "dished" describes these a little better) visors that can be attached via the side pivot or klap method. Somehow, I don't see myself winning enough support to change the existing nomenclature.

After I posted the original thread, I went back and looked through a couple more of my books. I found a couple of line drawings from the Hastings Brass, but not a whole lot else. I did find a picture in one book that showed a visored bascinet with a round face (I would call this one "globular" as it looked like half of a sphere, or globe), and an extention that would cover the throat/neck area (like the ones on the Hastings Brass, but with a more streamlined outline). The odd thing about this picture is that everything else in it appears to be late 13th century. The book that it is in does not cite the original, and all that the picture credits tell me is that the original is in the British Library. I'll try to post a picture of it if anyone is interested.

Thanks again!

-Grey

[Alexi Goranov]

Another one form Brian Rainey of the ARS

[Greyson Brown]

Alexi's signature feels rather apt at the moment. Nonetheless, thank you for the corrections and insights. Looks like this will have to be one of those do-it-yourself projects for the future.

-Grey